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-   -   So where was Gorbachev in all this, playing chess? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=158104)

OneToughHerring 11-10-09 03:20 PM

So where was Gorbachev in all this, playing chess?
 
I've notice countless articles about the Fall of the Berlin Wall and there are even several posts about the Wall coming down way back in 89', But I have yet to see one single acknowledgment of the real reason the wall fell....Mihail Gorbachev.

If it were not for his brilliant politics against "The Evil Empire" that managed to end the Cold War and to secure the safety of Russia that wall may have still been there to this very day!

Thank you Mihail for your part in making it possible for the wall to fall.

You sir, Rock!:rock:

AVGWarhawk 11-10-09 03:23 PM

Agreed. Much an integral part of the entire history behind this signifigant event as the Berlin Wall falling. It was a series of fortunate events crafted or otherwise resulting in the fall of the wall. He was not alone in this venture. :D

VipertheSniper 11-10-09 03:43 PM

Ugh... thread fail

Biggles 11-10-09 04:02 PM

He didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize without a reason:yeah:

Onkel Neal 11-10-09 04:23 PM

That's rightz, same as Obama! :haha:

Thanks, Gorby, for being slightly less meglamaniacal than the previous Soviet dictators and being naive enough to think a communist police state could co-exist with freedom of speech and thought. :woot:

Aramike 11-10-09 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens (Post 1201777)
That's rightz, same as Obama! :haha:

Thanks, Gorby, for being slightly less meglamaniacal than the previous Soviet dictators and being naive enough to think a communist police state could co-exist with freedom of speech and thought. :woot:

:salute::yep:

Its just more of the typical anti-American rhetoric from the same guy who claimed that the USSR didn't increase military spending in response to Reagan's spending.

I really don't think OTH has a clue what he's talking about.

AVGWarhawk 11-10-09 04:38 PM

Come on guys...I was attempting to throw OTH off the track by agreeing with him :D

Oberon 11-10-09 05:09 PM

No, he was playing Hop-scotch with Reagan.

Next question, please

Stealth Hunter 11-10-09 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1201796)
No, he was playing Hop-scotch with Reagan.

Next question, please

Cold War Political Tension Hop-Scotch...:haha:

Oberon 11-10-09 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter (Post 1201801)
Cold War Political Tension Hop-Scotch...:haha:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/un.../Hopscotch.jpg

:yep:

August 11-10-09 09:07 PM

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/archives/gorbachev.jpeg

OneToughHerring 11-11-09 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles (Post 1201771)
He didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize without a reason:yeah:

True. But you see many of these Americans are actually racists and bigots, that's why they respond in said manner.

Onkel Neal 11-11-09 09:33 AM

Oh. Now I feel sad.:wah:

Oberon 11-11-09 09:36 AM

Irony = OTH post coming after an American posting a picture of Gorbachev paying his respects to a fallen American. :hmmm:

goldorak 11-11-09 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens (Post 1201777)
That's rightz, same as Obama! :haha:

Thanks, Gorby, for being slightly less meglamaniacal than the previous Soviet dictators and being naive enough to think a communist police state could co-exist with freedom of speech and thought. :woot:

I wouldn't be so condescending as Cuba is still communist country and a thorn in side for the US, and lets not even mention Cina a communist state by any definition, and no the "liberal" economic system doesn't make Cina the land of the free. Are the Cinese leaders being naive enough to think a police state can co-exist with a liberal economic system ? :shucks: It works well enough for them though.

Biggles 11-11-09 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1201890)

:yep: :yeah:

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine...851118_400.jpg

No matter what Reagan did, if Gorbachev decided not to listen or ignore him, Reagan's efforts would've been in vain. Reagan could not have broken down the wall himself.
And he didn't.

Skybird 11-11-09 10:37 AM

Gorbatchev was tried to be toppled from within the party's regime. Opposition to his policies was strong - but he kept loyal to the path he had chosen. He may have seen the economy of his country being in very bad shape, but nevertheless, somebody else than him coming to power would have meant that the regime eventually could have hold out for much longer time. How it is possible you see in North Korea - compared to North Korea, the late USSR still was almost an idyll - but still the NK regime lives on, and even can rebuff and outsmart the almighty Americans. The tools to control the crowd the forces to keep foreign enemies out - still existed in the USSR 89. Would have the USSR collapsed nevertheless, sooner or later? Probably yes. Will NK one day collapse? Probably yes. The point is that this does not take plac ein the present, and did not necessarily take place due to western policies in 1989.

So, Gorbatchev really was a lucky event in that he rebelled against the regime, somehow, and broke it open, although it still could have held out much longer by the use of force and old, long tradition. And if the situation for the poeple would have detoriated - who would have cared, for they had no voice? Gorbatchev opened a window of opportunity in history, although somewhat unintentionally, and that simply is his outstanding merit.

As a matter of fact, under Yeltzin, when there was "democracy and capitalism" entering russia and opened the free hunt for Russian assets, the economic situation for many people detoriated much beyond what was the normal status in the USSR, and foreign interests worked hand in hand with regional corruption and russian Mafia to exploit the material values as best as possible - at the cost of the russian people, for the profit of foreign enterprise. Remembering those years, which brought the oligarchic structure to raise that later Putin so unforgivingly started to shatter again in that he signalled very clearly that they would become his personal enemies if they try to ursupate the control over the state, gives Russians little reason to be so very much in favour of American understanding of free market forces in action, "freedom" and democracy. With these, they were worse off than before - thanks to foreign predatory behavior. Now that there is a small hesitent general raise in material status for many russians, one has to note that this started with Putin taking over from weak yeltzin and estavblishing stronger control over the state policies. No, he is not democratic, and yes, he accepts a certain level of corruption in the econoym as long as it still serves the state's interest and does not try to take over control from the state. So what?

In other words: Putinism works much better for Russia than what the West had to bring to it in the early 90s in the name of "freedom and democracy". It was maximum foreign exploitation, dressed in candy-sweet catchphrases.

August 11-11-09 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1202017)
Irony = OTH post coming after an American posting a picture of Gorbachev paying his respects to a fallen American. :hmmm:

I'd say it flew about 3ft over his head or was it 10?

AVGWarhawk 11-11-09 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1201890)

This picture is very very telling of the relationship these two had. We only know what we were told via the media and the two involved. We will not know what was said behind closed doors between these two.

Skybird 11-11-09 11:20 AM

Well, the one made the other stop to talk of the evil of empire.

Or was it the empire of evil? :DL

One way or the other - Reagan was not shy of powerful rethorics, and he never gave them up for cheap reasons only.

Maybe that says something on the relation both men had.

On the other hand - words are words, and gestures are gestures, both can be used to make the crowds believe something that is different from the real thing. So - we simply will never know.


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