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Large modern composites
This is what I have running on my system
RFB_v1.52_102408 RFB_v1.52_Patch_18Jan09 RFB_v1.52_RadarHotfix RSRDC_RFBv15_V420 RSRDC_V420_Patch2 RFB_German Audio Files DBSM_SH4 OpsMonsun_V705 Csengoi's EnemiesOfGermany OMv705_Patch1 The issue: I hit a Large modern composite right under the funnel. With an actual ship, the hit would have resulted in the ship either slowing down, or coming to a full stop, due to serious problems with the power plant. However, what happens in game is the torpedo hits, a hole is formed in the side of the ship...and the ships runs off...at 13 knots!!!! Despite the fact the seas are heavy I call BS, surface and start chasing it, with the deck gun hammering away. Completely un-realistic, but so is a mortally wounded ship running off at flank speed. After over an hour of zig zagging, at high speed with deck gun blazing, and one failed torpedo shot, the thing finally lurches to a stop. Sevaral minutes later it sinks, with no further gun action done after the ship started slowing. I dread engaging these ships because every damned one of them do this, unless they are cracked in half. Is there a mod that addresses this issue with these ships? It is very frustrating to get a perfectly placed hit and have to engage in a totally unrealistic gun battle. |
Keep in mind that directly beneath the funnel is not always the sweet spot for all ships.
Furthermore the 'holes' in the ships are just graphical eye candy and do not necessarly a true representation of the amount of damage. Ships running off at flank "every time" is a bit odd. You sure about that. I quite often see a ship slow considerably after a strike. I will typically use at least two or three torpedoes per target just to make sure because of possible duds and often one is just not enough. :salute: |
It is always with the large modern merchants, (the ones with the wide thick funnel)
This is something where the game is very inacurate. From what I have read, multiple torpedoes were required due to the failure and miss rate. One torpedo could in fact destroy a merchant. Ever watched footage of an actual live shot. There is no way an un-armoured, or even armored ship could stand that and keep going at flank. The fish or eels pack a wallop. Silent hunter seems to calculate a large explosive charge putting a relatively tiny hole in the hull. There is something not right about that. |
I had one do that just last night. He took two torpedoes and proceeded to run away at 11 knots - for about 10 minutes. Then he slowed to 5 knots, and about 20 minutes after that he stopped. About 20 minutes later he sank.
I agree it shouldn't happen consistently, but as for an unarmored ship taking that punishment and keeping going, USS Whale put eight torpedoes into a single merchant over a period of several hours before it finally sank. Some of them were duds, but the ship ate several good ones before finally surrendering to its fate. I'll try to remember to bring the actual account tomorrow. It shouldn't happen often, but it did indeed happen. |
But this physically makes no sense.
I have seen footage of live shots. How the hell can a ship survive such a hit? Now if the blast was too far below the hull, that I can see, but when the shot is just below the water line? |
A split freighter took 4 (1 disabled, 3 to finish it off) fish to sink the other night yet a lucky hit on a battleship blew it bits in 1 shot, luck is a factor I find.
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The large modern composite is a large ship.
There are actual reports of badly damaged freighters getting back to base despite enormous damage, from torpedos, bombs, evan mines... Bulkheads can contain the flooding. Water pumps can eject the water if the flooding is not serious. Damaged engines can be repaired over time. Just like your damage control team works hard, so is theirs. Trying to stay alive... I find this very realistically done. A big bravo to the RFB team for their efforts to create these sinking physics.:up: You can shoot a hundred shells to a ship, but it will not sink. Happened many times in real patrols. Except if the shells are properly aimed to create additional flooding. Of course, one can always return to stock sinkings, shoot the masts only and the ship sinks...:haha: |
You have to remember that in RFB, the Damage Model for ships is being changed from a "Hit Points" type system to a "Flooding" type system. Also the civilian (Merchant) ships damage models have been reworked on by Luke & Observer, and the warships have not been done yet.
Luke is still working on the Destroyers, then on to the larger warships. You can get ships to sink with 1 torpedo, but you have to be very lucky and hit the right spot. In most cases you are going to need to use multiple torpedoes on the merchant ships to get them to sink. |
What kind of footage are you guys refering to? If you are talking about more modern torpedo tests you should not even compare those with a WWII tropedo modern fish are far more powerful than WWII era ones.
It can be annoying getting some nasty hits in game and the ship sail away at the same time you can also see a huge ship go down from one torpedo which is with WWII torpedos pretty unlikely. Like the T3 tankers I have seen those slpit in half from just two fish while playing as a U-boat in SH4 that is a little over zealous. |
Oh, I have no problem wit the ships being hard to sink. But to flee off at maximum speed is just not real. First off there would be drag caused by the damaged section of the ship, second the engines or boilers would be damaged, and need repair if possible. The ship should continue on if the damage did not take out the engine, but if the engine just got hit by several hundred pounds of explosives, then the ship should lurch to a halt, while repairs are carried out. Not zip off at flank speed.
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"All ahead flank, right full rudder!!" The alarm sounded, sending its dreadfull noice all over the ship. Sleeping crewmembers raced to their stations, sealing all the watertight compartments as they armed themselves with fire extinguish and emergency equipment. The captain's fears came true. It was an almost suicide mission, transferring bulldozers and other construction equipment in the newly captured but heavily bombed airfield in the Philipines... But orders were orders... The Japanese expansion required most escorts for the battlegroups and big convoys. It was too late... The Mk14 torpedo hit amidships right under the funnel. The shake was ferocious. All port windows of the bridge were smashed, sending shrapnel to all personnel there. A fire started immediately, just like magic. As the ship continued sailing to starboard, the first engineer raced downwards to evaluate the damage. Already, the fire had spreaded at the deck, but the crew raced with hosts to fight the fire. The conditions inside were worse... The bulkheads had held, but the enormous amount of water had the ship already listing 5 degrees to port... Immediately the captain ordered a counterflood of two empty starboard compartments, somewhat balancing the ship. "Rudder amidships!! Damage report" "Kanjo, we have flooding in the boiler room, slowly spreading towards the forward hold! The watertight doors are holding... for now" "Direct all pumps to the boiler room! Speed is the only chance we've got" "American submarine, behind us, closing!!" Speed was now at 13 knots. It was the maximum speed the ship could have damaged, at this sea state. An SOS was already been sent to HQ, an Emily changing course and racing to the freighter's position. Then the first shell smashed the right boat. It was the first of about 80 shells fired from the pursuing submarine. A brave crewmember manned the aft 25mm AA gun, shooting 5 or 6 magazines at the sub. After the 16th shell landed on deck, the AA gun was not shooting any more... Already half an hour had passed since the torpedo hit. The crew managed to contain the flooding, and the pumps tireleslly removed the water from inside. The ship maintained speed, enduring the HE shells fired by the sub, and the continous zig-zagging prevented the submarine captain to launch another torpedo... until now... The lookout saw the foam on the approaching Mk14, immediate action was ordered, with the torpedo passing 10 meters of bow. A poorly fired shot, or a quick anticipation from the captain... But this was no warship. The watertight doors had endured a lot of pressure, the speed of the ship making it worse. After several shells, parts of the engine started to malfunction, slowing the ship... The captain realized that they wouldn't go any further before the pressure of the water would breach the engine room, the heart of the ship. Suddenly, the great hissssssssss indicated that the boiler room watertight doors had failed... The ship slowly lost propulsion and it was creeping at 2 knots... 2 pumps damaged by the gunfire couldn't offer their services any more... The flooding now was now getting worse... Kanjo ordered the remaining crew to abandon ship, manning the surviving boat and two life rafts. They paddled steadily as their previous home was sinking bow first, into the shallow waters, silently, without saying the last goodbye to the men that taked care of her.. The one hour chase before the sinking of the ship carried them closer to shore... giving them more hope for survival... The submarine, seeing their prey go down, changed course and dived, fearing Japanese retaliation... 20 minutes later, the Emily saved the survivors of Tonan Maru... A sturdy ship, died without betraying her beloved crew...:salute: |
You got a future in Literature, XTBilly!
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Glad you liked it!:) SH4 is a war simulation, not just a wargame. I just wanted to show our friend Pythos that the unrealistically situation he describes, is what a lot of us wished for... nothing is predictable in warfare... a tanker I was chasing absorbed two eel hits and finished her with 20+ shells. The same type of tanker blew up with one... One can never know... if this isn't the closest to reality then what is?:D |
Someone probably mentioned it, but as in real life it can take hours for a ship to sink. If you hit it with two or more it may sink right away. Think of the hundreds of ships that sub skippers just got credit for damage, because after one, even two hits the ship got away. Every sub in the war went through this. Not sure what you mean by footage, unless the real movie footage with the big exposions.
Also with the game much depend on what the ship load is or if it's even loaded. Per the game, you have internal and external loads and different amounts..light loads to heavy. Many time you hit a ship with ammo, even one M10 will blow it up right away. The game also programs the experience of the crew. If's it's a veteran or elite crew, they can repair damage quickly. |
Seeing that well thought out and gripping story, I see that I may have been in the wrong.
Firstly I see the max speed of that merchant was 19kts. Stupid me mistakenly thought 12kts. Hence my irritant at the ship racing away at a seemingly impossible speed of 13 kts. But I have to point out (again). I am not talking about the ship NOT sinking. I am talking about it running off like it did. This is not the only occasion I have had this happen, with this class of ship. As I said it happens with every last one of them. But when a target presents itself after a simulated month of no action, ya gotta take what you get. Otherwise I just wouldn't deal with them. The usual result of a torpedo attack was the destruction of the target. The odd ball results are ones such as the story depicted. Just like MANY B-17s and B-24s met a fiery fate, and only some came back missing entire vertical stabilizers, or half a wing, or flying all the way back to base after the crew bailed out. Those are the amazing stories of that time. Gallant ships are gallant because they are rare. Their brethren went to the bottom with barely a whimper after the attack for the most part. Have any of you read torpedo junction, Submarine, or Memoirs ten years and twenty days? There is account after account of ships being hit by one torpedo, and just vanishing. In "one of our submarines", when a torpedo hit, the ship remained afloat for maybe 10 to 15 minutes max, these are not fanciful novels, but novels written by actual submarine commanders. I know you all don't seem to understand, but a torpedo packs a hell of a wallop. Were not talking a few pounds of TNT, we are talking a few hundred pounds of torpex. If the torpedo went off just below the ship, the back broke, period. If it went off too deep then the crew of the intended victim got a bumpy ride. and there would be one very frustrated sub commander watching his inteneded victim run off at high speed. If the torp hit the side at the waterline, well, it would definitely blow a hole in the side of the ship, which could be flood controlled if the hole did not spread between two bulkheads. But that hole would cause a whole hell of a lot of hydrodynamic drag, and cause the ship to limp along, not fly along at near full speed. As I have stated before, the reason for so many torps getting sent at once was because torps were lousy, and either missed, run under, or failed all together. In the afforementioned books, one commander says that it took just one to incapacitate a sizable freighter, but the problem was, when that one would do its job. I do not think I am out of line being upset with this happening everytime I encounter one of these ships, when I have read more accounts of ships just vanishing after one hit, than I have read of the gallant old freighter that didn't let its crew down. They are great and true stories, but they were not common, and no where near as common as they are in my current set up of sh4. As a side note, it does not help that sh4 has a maximum range you can be from a ship before credit for its sinking becomes null and void. |
Go through the war records and compare sunk and damaged ships....put's things in perspective.
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Torpedos
Hello here's a little info that may help,
By 1943, with the submarine fleet still unable to prove their overall effectiveness, boat captains were once again casting the blame for their troubles on faulty ordnance. Patrols returned to base with tales of torpedoes which would explode about half of the time. Finally convinced that the MK VI influence exploder was the culprit, Lockwood ordered them to be disconnected. But the saga of defective weapons continued. As numerous patrol reports continued to describe perfect set ups followed by torpedoes striking the targets but failing to explode, (one account detailed an attack where 13 out of 15 hits did not detonate) Lockwood ordered new tests to be conducted. Firing torpedoes at a vertical cliff face, the duds were closely examined. It was determined the when a torpedo struck at a 90º degree angle (which was considered ideal) the firing pin would often become distorted before it could contact the explosive cap. The results confirmed what many had feared, that submarines went into battle armed with defective weapons. Installing a stronger firing pin resolved the issue of malfunctioning torpedoes virtually overnight. The resulting dramatic increase in tonnage scores removed any doubt as to the cause of the problem that bedeviled the submarine fleet during the first few years of WW II. I'm currently reading the book, "Wahoo" by Richard H. O'Kane, Rear Admiral, USN. In the book he explains that they received a better explosive torpedo war head, called Torpex, composed of TNT and metal flakes, these seemed to make a big difference to him. Websteres has a great little mod that increases the explosive power of the torpedos 1,2,3 times you could use that mod. I'm am currently running 1.4 verson and Trigger Maru for 1.4, (it is also made in a version for 1.5) TM seems to have addressed this torp issue. howeever I incourage you not to become dishartened, keep tring new set ups on Marus, and maybe try some of the great mods that are out there, that address many issues in the stock game. As Okane says in his book... Never give up!!!! SHOOT THE SONS OF BITCHES. Indy:salute: |
Armistead: Put things in perspective? I AM. I am going buy books written by actual commanders. Where do you find honest to god war records? Are the ships described in the war records ships that were damaged by a submarine fired torpedo, or by surface gun action, following a failed torpedo attack?
Indy: Thank you for the post there, it kinda enforces what I have been saying. Torpedo failures were high, and was the reason for multiple shots. I am going to look up those torpedo mods, and if I can get more info about the blast radius of one of those warheads. Around my area we recently had a cargo ship lightly (read that, lightly) brush up on a pylon of a bridge here. The result was a large hole formed by crumpled hull plates. It needed to be floated, and dry docked for several weeks of repair. No explosive was involved here. If a light brush with a concrete pylon can cause such damage, then what can an explosion do? look at the damage to the Uss Cole when a boat of suicide bombers detonated their charge quite a way from the hull. The Cole had to be littereally lifted out of the water and transported on the back of a huge vessle back to the states. Perspective, how about actual physics? Watch some episodes of Mythbusters to see the power of some relatively small blasts, they will astonish you. Explosives are no joke. |
Greek destroyer ADRIAS
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...7/Adrias-1.jpg
The Hellenic Navy destroyer ADRIAS (Hunt III class), was loaned by Great Britain to Greece a little before her completion. She operated in the Meditteranean Sea from the Allied port of Alexandria in Egypt. She sunk U-553 and U-623. She participated in Sicily landing operations sinking two German torpedo boats in cooperation with HMS QUANTOCK. She escorted numerous convoys throughout the Med campaign and she was present in the surrender of the Italian Fleet, representing Greece. Operating with a task force near the Greek island of Calymnos, she hit a mine. The mine's explosion completely cut off the bow of the ship:o, from the bow to the bridge's superstructure. HMS HURWORTH racing to the rescue of HN ADRIAS, also hit a mine and sunk. HN ADRIAS rescued the survivors of HMS HURWORTH and sailed to neutral Turkey where she made minor repairs before departure. She sailed the stormy Aegean Sea in December, making a trip of about 800nm before arriving at the port of Alexandria in December 6, 1943, (St. Nicholas Feast, the protector of sailors), throughout cheers and celebrations of all the Allied ships anchored there, showing exceptionally seamanship and giving a morale boost to all Allied sailors who couldn't believe their eyes. Hellenic Navy honored HN ADRIAS by giving it's glorious name to a modern frigate of HN. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9/Adrias-2.jpg |
This is hard to put into words without causing a fight. Pythos, I want you to know that I both agree and disagree with you, and I'm not trying to argue or prove you wrong.
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As I described, I've read a report of at least one merchant absorbing several torpedo hits before succumbing, but I've also read of one merchant hit by a dud torpedo that ruptured a couple of seams, and poor management and damage control led to that merchant's demise. I've also read of merchants splitting in half, one half sinking and the other being towed to a safe port. My bottom line is that if a ship takes a lot of damage and still escapes - well, it really happened. If, on the other hand, it happens consistently with one type of ship in the game (as you say happens with this type), then it is a problem and needs to be looked at. |
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