Wall street bailout plan defeated in the House.
 

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5..._GwZo2DUsasMcw

Good. I don't see the value in bailing out those that caused this mess in the first place.

So what do you reckon will happen to the value of the $ on the international currency market now :hmm:

Dunno, maybe lower it enough to bring back all those manufacturing jobs from overseas?

All I can say is "Oh well". The banks created the mess and they should clean it up. Do you think the banks ever attempted to REASONABLY work with people who got behind with payments? Hell no. They were relentless with calls and letters to collect. They demanded thousands of dollars to get the balance even. If people could do that they would not be in foreclosure to begin with. Eventually they woke up a few days back and came crying to mamma (Capitol Hill) and put a gun to her head. If the banks attempted to make a reasonable effort to help those in distress, this could have been avoided. Unfortunate the greed gets the better of everyone. The bail out should fail. I certainly do not want to pay for the short comings of others.

http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/ma...ssimist-t.html

It's a no-win-no-win situation. Accepting that package, does not enough, but still would come at a very costly price. not accepting the package, also comes at a costly price.

Well, that is karma, self-created. Occasionally, in the past 5, 6 years, we had discussion about such things, and when I pointed out that there is a logical trend leading to outcomes comparable to the ones we see today - I was laughed and mocked about. I hear no laughter anymore these days.

Sorry Skybird, everyone had foresight into this problem. Many chose to ignore the issues including the greed driven banks and that part of society stuck in it. Many did not and it is these folks who used their heads that are taking it in the shorts.

Of course it is a no win situation. The banks have the government over a barrel AND THEY KNOW IT. Why do you think the banks ran to mommy on Capitol Hill to fix their big boo boo. Sick really. Not to mention this sets precidence down the road with other companies who make big boo boos. :down:

I do not think Bush was doing any thinking here at all. He just wanted to cut a fat check and make everythink OKEY DOKEY. Unfortunate the tax payers see it in a different light. Bailing out this type of private business is not the way to go. It rewards greed.

BTW, the banks will be tight with loaning money and everyone will be gone over with a fine tooth comb before one cent is loaned...then again, this should have done that a long time ago.

Everyone? Should I laugh now? I remember some of the accusations I had been targetted with over the past years. Some of them were hurtful. Foresight into the problem they did not reveal - more outright ignorance, according to the motto: it cannot be what should not be - we are STRONG.

Of course, some people with a more open mind saw it coming. but by far not everyone. People headed for the cliff with thundering applaus. That with the masses pushing in your rear the only way down there is to jump, nobody wanted to hear. It's the classical Lemmings phenomenon. Lemmings do not jump off cliffs because they are stupid, as often is said. The ones up in front get pushed from the masses coming behind them. It does not need many to get the march of the Lemmings started, but once it's under way, it seems you can't stop it - everybody yells "Me to! and dreams of the cheap fortune, and pushes with all his strength.

To the banks 'credit' their hands were forced to in many cases to 'offer' these bad debt loans. Hell they had to to remain in buisness or be legislated out of existance.

As to the legislation failing all I can say is good. It needs to be given more thought and a LOT of trimming.

As to the politics of the thing Pelosi needs to be taken out to the woodshed. Her behaviour is nothing short of shameless.

About the foresight issue a few members of congress forwarned of this exact failure several years ago... Clinton era I believe. There 'warnings' fell on deaf ears.

Its the end of the completely free market deregulation capitalism ideology.
Just 15 years after the end of communism and 15 years too late if you ask me.
The 2 greatest 20th century ideologies finally put to rest.
Oh well, all we can hope for is that from this debacle a new economic order arises.
A better and more transparent one. :yep:

TBH...it's the financial consequences in the future my children might face that bothers me greatly.

Don't cherry pick. Most ignored it. It is not the lemming to the sea. It is greed and keeping up with the Jones. There are constant ads on TV advertising for help with folks who are in over their heads. Again, everyone knows but chose to ignore. Phone calls from collectors keep coming in with letters to follow looking to collect. These were ignored as well. Then the roof caved in.

Democracy is great because you have CHOICE. Americans CHOSE not to change. They continued to elect the same political establishment over and over again over the last decades. And if I'm not mistaken up until the 2000 presidental election, the % of voters for each presedential election was always under 50%.
Democracy and your duty as citizen are not god given rights. You don't exert them in full, you have yourself and people like you to blame, besides the usual politicians as to why a country goes the way it does.

One small point here if I may....I'm not a US citizen!!

We have our own financial problems here in the UK to contend with.

I certainly don't see your country as a paragon of financial security either....and that is going back as far as the last world war and before.

As a father I also reserve the right to feel concerned about the financial and economic wellbeing of my offspring in the future.

What is happening throughout the world will undoubtadly have consequences for the future.

I didn't intend to single you out. It was a general consideration I was making. I'm sorry for not being a native english speaking person, and sometimes the things I want to express don't come out clearly. :oops:
As to italy being in a catastrophic situation, well as ironic as it may seem italy is well insulated from this particular crysis. And the reason is very simple, our financial institutions didn't invest a lot of money in american securities. So while there may be loses and I'm sure there will be, we won't assist to banks collapsing as is happening in other countries in europe.
As to there being consequences for the future I'm well aware of that. But I think that the americans will suffer the most, and this very harsh lesson will prompt their poltical establishment to rethink what capitalism is about.
The real tragedy is that if america goes under so does the rest of the world.
I don't particularly care what happens to them, but I care what will happen to europe.

Have I really said so much a different thing? Do we really that much disagree here? :hmm: as I said, Lemmings do not run and jump to droiwn in the sea, they just don't knopw when enough is enough (of running up that cliff). And at some time, it turns to being driven by a self-dynamic - and push and ooops and splatter...

What? We haven't had anything approaching a "free" market since the 30's, arguably, before that. We have regulated capitalism right now and even had it in the financial sector. A lot of those institutions were bound by federal law to pursue sub-prime lending.

I'm curious about what type of order you would like to see....

What order I would like to see ?
How about one in which financial health is directly linked to industrial production. Where financial assets are linked with real tangibile things.
One where the risk of doing a bad operation is 100% taken by the financial istitution. Private profits ? Ok. Private loses also.
One order where self regulating markets are thrown out the window as experience has demostrated they don't work.
Just for starters, and this doesn't mean a communist or socialist state driven economy.
The faster americans learn this reality the better we're all going to be.

I don't feel like writing a huge paragraph about why this is a good thing, so I'll let one of my favorite spokesmen do it for me.:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sfUK...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQhHx...eature=related