Dutch memorial getting build for German Wehrmacht hero
 

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.

Jolly good.
It is important to consider the "humans-in-the-circumstances" and not just the
circumstances the humans are in.

*edit* I am very jealous of the German word "Mann". There is nothing in English to replace it well.

Clearly, fighting for Germany involves invading all of its neighbors and declaring martial law on everyone. :)

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family. Not much of a choice is there? Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die. Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler, nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them. And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off. :nope:

Good book the Forgotten Soldier, but bear in mind that the author may not have stuck
100% to the truth.

Thats not a point relevent to this topic, but it's intresting.

There is even controvsy about wheather he was even in the wehrmacht.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But even if it wouldnt be true, the pictures and the documentaries from the eastern front backs what he said. Not a fun place to be. :nope: As for the brutality of some Russian soldiers, we've had few occasions of veterans telling about some quite sick things they've seen, like at one time they found a finnish woman tied up to a tree with her breasts split in two. :-? War is hell, for every side.

And as for the book, it has to be one of the beast books I've read. The end especially was very touching.

Contains a picture of the model for the sculpture.

http://www.welt.de/politik/article19...ten_ehren.html

It's the intention that counts, I assume. :)

You really should read The Forgotten Soldier, written by an half-german, half-french (cant remember the term for that), serving in the GrossDeutchland unit in the Eastern Front. Like Letum already pointed out, it has been questioned if it is real or a hoax, but from what I've searched from the internet, the hoax-sayers are pointing to small things, uniform details and such and on the opposite side there's even veterans from the GD unit backing him.

Anyways, a really gruesome and real description of the war on Eastern Front, the finnish version is ~800 pages, so really a 'brick', but I didnt get bored once. Highly recommended. :up:

And lastly, got this from Wikipedia (I know, I know):
Dutch film director Paul Verhoeven has discussed with *Mouminoux the possibility of turning The Forgotten Soldier into a film.

I like Verhoven's movies, would like to see how he does an WWII war movie. It would be gory, that's for sure. :hmm:

*Mouminoux is the real surname of the author of the book.

The German language, aye.:cool:

A poll today told us even people above 65 have no longer resentment to our neighbours.
But uhhh, die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:

Aye, that's a sad thing. I have a great book about an Luftwaffe ace named Günther Lützow (108 confirmed kills IIRC), who was in a big part on designing the new tactics for Luftwaffe during the Spanish Civil War (He flew in the Legion Kondor). But AFAIK, it is only available in Finnish, Sweden and German.

Sad, as pretty much every historian give full credit of the new tactics to Werner Mölders, nor does he usually get anykind of mention in the mutiny against Goering, it was Lützow who had the balls to speak out to Goering and so was "exiled" to (IIRC) Sicily to command the LW units there. And not to forget that he saved one officers life when Goering ordered the officer to be executed, as he had brought an camera crew with him to one of the channel front airfields and he wanted to see the squadron to take off and intercept the bombers they were warned of, the officer refused to give the order because the clouds were very low and the winds were rather strong. Lützow got a call from that particular airfield and immediatly drove there and gathered official weather reports on the way to show as proof to Goering that the conditions werent suitable to scramble the fighters. And all in all, he was very liked by the ones who served under him. He usually spend his time not in the comfy commander's building, but out in the fields with the crew. Great pilot and a great person, sadly he is a MIA to this day after taking off on his Me262 to intercept B26's late in the war. Chilling, that the book has a picture taken of Lützow walking with Galland towards their Me262's just before Lützow left to his last mission.

Havre to say that it is proven that Waffen-SS had many units that didnt commit a single war crime.
The Waffen-SS ideological side is often over blown and the military side forgotten.
Many things in armies today are influenced or copied from them.

Right you are, I could have said it better. But compared to Wermacht, I'd bet that the SS was the one doing more atrocities.

Im not sure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_cri...Vinkt_massacre

The thing with war crimes is that they are done mostly by troops that are in the rear, occupying and possibly fighting against insurgents. Frontline and elite troops seem to commit them more rarely. Maybe they feel they are above that kind of stuff or they dont have the time.

'The Forgotten Soldier' is a great read, and if not a verbatim factual account (as claimed by some) it certainly has enough of the feel for life on the eastern front to have my esteem for anyone who suffered it.
Another good one is 'Sniper on the Eastern Front' pretty brutal stuff, but a good read none the less.

On another note, there was a history channel program on about the Waffen SS no so long back; one of the men they interviewed was speaking about a russian attack on their trenches: he said 'this russian, a huge fellow attacked me with his bayonet, down in the trench... and, ...I don't like to speak about what I did then. Well, I bit him, with my teeth, in the throat ...like an animal, I killed him.' or words to that effect. He goes on to talk about the overwhelming will to live and the things you become capable of in those conditions. Most of the veterans are all visibly scarred emotionally, which becomes so clear when they are recounting their experiences; the look in their eyes, as they relive events of 60 years ago like it was just yesterday, is a painful thing to behold.

TBH I think there's always going to be a little bit of 'storytelling' involved with books of these kinds; after all they are not textbooks - look to our modern counterparts 'Bravo 20' (andy mcnab) and 'The One That Got Away' (chris ryan) they might be based to a greater or lesser extent on reality, but remember that a factual account of such things would most likely be rejected out of hand by a publisher for being too dull, so we have embellishment for the benefit of the reader and sales.
Perhaps our own resident novelist could shed some light on the business of negotiating a manuscript with publishers?

Mate, I'm aware that Wermacht were part of atrocities, I'm not denying that. But, taking in account that Wermacht was the Jäger of the finnish army of today, the backbone of the infantry. The SS were the elite, nazi ideogonially-trained soldiers, good what they did, fighting for the gatherland, but most of they were so into it that they didnt think the other races to be humans and had no problem killing them. One could say some (not all!) were senseless killers in the name of the Fatherland.

Come on HT, you know what I mean. ;)

Alright everyone here's a brief, very brief insight into the Wermacht and SS during WWII.

First off, not everyone in the Wermacht was a Nazi, and not every Nazi was in the Wermacht. Same goes for the SS. Also, not everyone in the SS was a German or Austrian.

There were two main divisions in the SS: The Allgemeine SS and the Waffen SS.

The Allgemeine SS was also known as the General SS generally didn't have any contact with KZ (concentration camp) and VL's (extermination camp.) They generally served in other branches of the military to fulfill tasks a normal, lesser trained soldier could do.

The Waffen SS were the dangerous guys. They not only were the most effective fighting force of the German military in WWII, they also had a hand in extermination of Jews in Poland.

There are several noteworthy units in the Waffen SS (though there were many more):

The Adolf Hitler detachment (SSLSAH), which served as personal body guards to Hitler. It's hypothesised that the SS was made b/c when Hitler met with Hindenburg back in the early 1930's (at which Hindenburg called him "The Bohemian corporal") Hitler felt grossly inferior and became suspicious of officers. Thus Hitler made his own military unit that swore all allegence to him.

The Totenkopf (SSTV) unit, which for the most part served their fair share of time running camps such as Birkenau, Sobibor, Dachau, Chelmno, Auschwitz, Triblinka, Belzec, Majdanek and many others.

The Reserve (SSVT), which was mainly made of up draftees and conscriptions that would replace frontline troops that were killed or wounded in battle. In fact, if a man was found to try and draft dodge, he was usually placed in this unit b/c they were the first to fight, and had a very high casualty rate.

The Wiking unit, which was completely made of of foreigners. Which also went against all Nazi doctrine allowing Slavic men into their military, but not only their military; the branch which was held in the highest estee. Though, there was a catch which was this; the Wiking units were not allowed to wear the "SS" on their shirt colors, nor the deathshead.

Order Police and Einstatzgruppen:

These were the fellows that swept through the Soviet Union behind Operation Barbarossa and murdered Jews, Gypsies and undesirables on a massive scale.

Sources will say these fellows were part of the SS, but neither were required to swear allegiance to Hitler, nor had any of the special privileges the SS were accustomed to. None of the troops in either group held SS rank and for the most part, neither group was combat trained. These are the poor guys that fell victim to circumstance, many of them had been police officers before the war and when the war broke out, they were told they were to go secure the recently conquered area and act as a police force; little was mentioned about their other task, issuing a bullet to the neck of every Jew, Gypsie and undesireable they came across.

Alright before people start calling me a NSDAP member; I just finished a college course of "Nazi Era History: 1919-1945" and my exam was yesterday, so all this stuff is fresh in my head. If ya'll have any questions, ask and I'll answer them the best I can.

I'm also open to intelligent discussion about the SS and any Nazi doings, or if you just want clarification on an event, I can point you in the right direction of where to go.

If any of this sounds interesting to you, I have a few books for you to read.

The Nazi Seizure of Power by William Sheridan Allen, which is an account of how the Nazi party began and operated from 1922-1945 in a small German town. It's a very good read, and gives you an idea of just how the Nazis were so sucessful in winning hearts and minds.

Ordinary Men by Christopher R. Browning, this book follows an Order Police unit which was working as an Einstatzgruppen in eastern europe and depicts the perils and tribulations of being given the task of extermination.

Auschwitz: A Doctors Eyewitness Account by Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, Dr. Nyiszli was a Sonderkommando in Auschwitz which was given the task of assisting Dr. Mengele in research regarding twins, diseases and trying to prove that there was a degeneration between the races. This book was written in 1946 following Dr. Nyiszli's liberation from Nazi captivity.

Hitler's Second Book by Adolf Hitler, this was an unfinished work of Hitler's which was to be his sequal to Mein Kampf. It depicts Hitler's views on the war of race and space.

I think V(W)iking was the whole of scandinavia. Not sure tho. :hmm:

Wiking was one of many, you are correct. I was just trying to prove the point the Nazis were hypocrits when implementing any sort of racial doctrine. The reason I cited the Wiking as one of these international units is b/c it's the one I know the most about.

Maybe my writing was a bit off if I gave the impression that the Wiking unit was the only foreign unit within the Waffen SS.

I was watching BBC America the other night and this comercial came on for one of the BBC comedy shows.

Two British Actors dressed in SS uniforms. One turns to the other and asks:

I say do you think we are the baddies, after all we do have these skulls on or our caps.;)