US Navy, Chinese say hello!
 

Interesting article. They did well to get so close to a CV without being detected. What do you guys think about this? I'm guessing the song class is a electric/diesel boat like the Kilo?

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...hina_03_28.asp

Wow, talking about letting your guard down. :huh: I'm not that familiar with surface vessels, but shouldnt there be someone looking out for subs all the time?

Exactly, perhaps this argument over the use of active sonar is costing the US Navy a little bit too much in security? I mean those electric subs are damned quiet so passive sonar would make it quite hard to detect, active on the other hand is not... U-boat Kaluens will agree with this! :ping: = :dead:

Do the Chinese have Skyval's btw? If so, shiiiit lol... if things don't improve the US can kiss goodbye to a few carriers in any future conflict with china.

Aye, but active sonar is like a flashlight in a dark room. You can see someone, but everyone can see you. With the Chinese navy having plenty of Sunburn missiles, I can't see any CVBG popping up with a "Here I am" burst of active sonar :)

No idea about the China's weaponry. But as for the US carriers getting their butts kicked, dont know. If it would be a war time, I'm sure they would be listening 24/7 for underwater threats. Then again, it's a whole another thing if they can hear the sub. ;)

Well, part of the issue is in regards to using active sonar and the damage it causes to marine life, especially cetaceans. There have been legal proceedings in the US restricting the use of active sonar in some areas, the Navy has been trying to remain sensitive to the issue and has curbed it's use somewhat. There are number of citations both for and against it's use on the 'net...

Can't ping 'em, can't find 'em...

True, but a Carrier task force isn't exactly the quiestest thing sailing the worlds oceans lol. I suppose the only advantage is that the smaller subs need to get closer to engage properly, given the US more time to locate anything suspicious on their passive sonar before giving it a "hello, bugger off" in the form of a ping or two (perhaps coupled with a few sonabouys to keep track of the little tinker ;)

Another point. How do you think this episode will effect US & Taiwanese Naval doctrine in terms of the threat posed by China.

Well, not good for CV group commanders promotion potential.:lol:
I think it's a good thing because if that isn't a wakeup call I don't know what is and give thanks this is peace time. A very embarrassing situation.

The Kitty Hawk must be a sub-magnet. Didn't this same thing happen a couple of years ago to her?

The Song class is not a PRC-produced Kilo; it is a native design, but yes, it's a conventionally-powered sub. The first ones were supposed to be very noisy, but they may have fine-tuned that. All the same, that's pretty close; it would appear that nobody was listening. Maybe American Idol was on or something.

It wouldnt suprise me if China got sent some Shkval's during the Soviet Union days. Quick, but unreliable and noisy. But still, dropping the ball big time here from US ASW.

I thought that although noisy there was practically no escape from a shykval due to its speed, am I wrong?

AFAIK it isn't a guided weapon, but at the speed it moves it doesn't need to be :)

Depends on the range at which its fired, which brings Tchock's post into play - if it aint guided, a sharp course change to either side of its path at flank should be good, but thats assuming you've got that maneuverability. Submarines do, but if its an aircraft carrier, you gotta hope for the best :p

And hope that the DD screen picks them up first and turns them defensive before they can get an accurate TMA solution!

The PLAN does have a number of Shkvals, but their Kilo's can't use them (unless they have been modified since the Russians built them). As for their home built subs who knows. Also only PLAAF jets and the PLAN's Sovermenny class DDGs can use N-22 Sunburn missiles since they are way to large for torpedo tube launch. However the PLAN does have a number of N-27 Alfa ASMs which are quite dangrous, they are launched from Kilo Improved class subs. PLAN SSNs and SSKs (Han, Song, Yuan, and a Single Ming) do have the capablity to launch C-802 missiles from torpedo tubes (or in the case of that Ming dedcated launch tubes like on an Echo SSGN), the C-802 is the equivlent of an Exocet missile.

In other words, stuff you would rather keep separate from the hull of your ship! :o

You will probably find that the CVBG was on a transit so its not on a high standing of alert, war time it would be diffrent yes the song is quiet but not that quiet, the powerplant of the kilo in a customised chinese hull and sail and its loud its about as quiet as a romeo maybe a little quieter which to a nuclear submarine like the 688i or even a seawolf would be easy prey.

Personally I would put more faith in the air defence capabilities of an entire AEGIS-networked carrier screen then I would in that same screen's abilities to evade a full spread of torpedos fired at near point blank range. Better to make them fight on your terms; force them to resort to the same Soviet-style missile salvo tactics that you spent half the Cold War and many billions of dollars training to defeat.

What I fail to understand is how these slow, low-endurance SSKs keep managing to sneak up on fast, high-endurance carrier groups. The SSK is a weapon of position, not manouever. At sprint speed they can only maintain a charge for a dozen miles. I would not characterize this as event as a failure of U.S. anti-submarine capacities. Moreso I would characterize it as failures of a.) intelligence, failing to localize and track the SSK during its most acoustically vulnerable moments i.e. snorting (representing poor waterspace management and maritime domain awareness and is a good reason to build more subs of your own), and also b.) the blue fleet's manouever, staying still long enough to allow a slow-ass lumbering submarine to knock on your front door.

As far as im aware of only the early versions of Shkval's were unguided with current generation ones using fins in contact with the water on the edge of the gas bubble the torpedo runs in to change direction.
Allso unless its fired from allmost point blank range (relatively speaking) even the speed these torpedos travel at there is plenty of time for avoidance since detection of the weapon takes place at launch.

I've seen somewhere that the latest generation of Shkval's would run out then slow down for periods of time to allow acoustic or active search, then re-enable towards a target if they found something. These types apparently are only built in prototypes by and for the Russkies. As far as this stuff is concerned, I'm not happy about this happening. I would certainly hope that our naval ships would always operate in a high state of ASW operations around the clock. The fact that we're not currently at war is a big reason for a lower state of ops though. I think during war, the US Navy would operate differently. I'm hopeful that our Virginia SSN's, and Seawolf's with their new offboard sensors and MK-48 CBASS will be able to deal with the diesel threat adequately. That's why they're being designed. I'm also hoping that in the event of a build-up to a flashpoint crisis, we prepare and be ready to conduct pre-emptive ASW by just destroying China's subs in port before they can deploy in any type of numbers. That would be the best option.