Channel 4 - Battle for the Holy Land
 

For the last 2 days I have watched the lengthy Channel 4 documentary on Israel and Palestine.

First of all I would like to say, that I have been a long time supporter of Israel and its people, whether its shared democratic values or its ability to survive against the odds I am uncertain. Indeed I found myself at University a few years ago defending Israeli policy against a tide of pro-Palestinian sentiment.

The documentary really surprised me and was quite emotional. The first part was very balanced and concentrated on the problems of land and ownership in Jerusulem. Both sides seem to have an ignorance of the other and you can see this when the reporters are moving from side to side, from area to area.

The 2nd part has just finished and I really found myself questioning whether I do hold the same values as the poeple of Israel. I saw film of Jewish kids continuously pelting families with stones as they went to school, I saw a Palestinian man who has to walk through 3 check points up a street to get to his house. I completely understand the need for check points in light of the terror of the past but the guy walks through these 3 check points every single day, twice a day. He is made to wait 30 minutes at the final check point whilst settlers stream past. its embarassment plain and simple, no defence, nothing. The soldier knew who he was and he was forced to wait 30 minutes.
I saw a family evicted from their home and moved to a small building next to their house whilst settlers occupied the building. When the deputy defence minister was confronted by the reporters, he apologises and say it is being sorted out, the settlers had still not got out! its an absolute disgrace.
I saw groups of people lined up shouting at Palestinian children, 1 woman shouting "im going to kill her, this is a Jewish street".... And you know what I saw the whole time, German people and soldiers standing in the same spot as those settlers shouting the same things.
Now I am very sympathetic towards what Israel has gone through and I think i'll always consider myself pro-Israel because my heart tells me that these people hold the same values as me, but this was a real shocker for me and I was very disappointed.

Dan

I'd be pissed if I was a Palestinian. In the west we're fed one side of the story.

Be ready for a bunch of right wing spoon fed comments to fly your way.


they hate us for our freedom!

No

They hate us because we tread on them

And steal their land.

Quite.. seems to be the Palestinian side though:hmm:

Precisely.

Dan, you saw cheap out-of-context crap.

yes I know what your saying and I do know how biased the western media can be with this situation. I was just really surprised at how some people were acting. For me my admiration for Israel and its people comes from their "higher moral ground", this is how I feel anyway. But I was surprised to see how low even some Israeli's went. He did talk to some Israeli families too, one whose son had bunked off school and ended up getting stoned to death by Palestinians.
It all seems a right mess.
You can see such a difference in the social structure and education of the 2 communities and I use the term intentionally, they really are very different 2 separate communities.

It's a sad situation all around. Arabs and Jews were both bullied by the Europeans and/or Turks for a long time.

After all they went through with the Holocaust, you would have hoped that when the Jews found a place where they could found the State of Israel, that it would have been in a place and with folks, with whom they could have peaceful co-existance.

I can only say that both sides are a little right, and both sides are a little wrong.

X 3 :yep:

Those people are probably just so tired to it all that their emotions have gotten better of them..

This is a theological battle that was going on a long time before 1948, and like all religious battles, it gets twisted, bent to people's will, usually in a bad way.

People of the Jewish faith were persecuted for a long time in Europe, you only have to read Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice to realise that. And of course the Second World War was no picnic for them either. But similarly, the Islamic peoples of the Middle East were persecuted in numerous crusades, again largely the result of personal agendas hidden under the banner of religion, again at the behest of the European nations. As if that isn't bad enough, the Arabs also got used in the First and Second World War to further the Empire ambitions of many European countries.

So what you end up with, is a completely messed up situation, with most of the blame for that mess able to be laid at Europe's door.

Then comes the formation of the State of Israel, and who could blame followers of the Jewish faith from being pleased about that? But similarly, who could blame the Arabs who got shifted to one side to allow the state to be created, from being less than thrilled about it? How on Earth could one expect a peaceful resolution to such a situation?

So we get Islamic fundamentalists, who in their eyes are perfectly justified in bombing and kidnapping and ransoming etc. After all, if you put yourself in their shoes, what they are doing is no different from what the French Resistance did when the Nazis took over their country. Needless to say however, the Israelis can hardly be blamed for wanting to defend a Jewish homeland, as they've seen what happens when they tried to practice their religion in Europe all those years ago. Unfortunately, in order to do that, they end up acting like the Nazis did in persecuting the people of the land they took over, which is perhaps the supreme irony, given that they were once the victims of such a set up.

Basically, if you look up cl*sterf*ck in the dictionary, it should say: See the Middle East.

This is why I'm not a fan of religion. The way I look at it is; why should I need to go to a building with a cross or a crescent or a star on its roof once a week (or day) to be a nice person? I can do that without organised religion telling me not to steal, kill, lie etc. And it's one of the reasons why I think the scene in Monty Python's The Life of Brian, where John Cleese says: 'He's the real Messiah, and I should know, I've followed a few!' is perhaps one of the funniest, yet most tragic lines of dialogue that's ever been written.

Sad, and no end in sight either.

:D Chock

I think of Lawrence of Arabia when Omar Shariff says to Alec Guiness ,"the peace will be much harder than the war."

Yup, great movie, and it highlights the different attitudes and culture clashes quite well. But it also does that with its casting, in that many of the Arabic characters are played by Europeans.

So even in a movie that is somewhat sympathetic to the Arabs, it displays prejudices.

:D Chock

Both sides are human with emotions running on the edge, i suppose if bombs went of around my neigbourhood i would be pretty jumpy and quick to blame the other too.

what is evident is the amount of hate that children on both sides display! i think "we're" in for a very rough future in the region.

Somehow I doubt the makers were spoiled for choice of good Arab actors who could also speak perfect English.

MOG!! bloody hell mate, long time no see!! :up:

Or perhaps to put it another way - it's business as usual then.

Honestly, I cannot see anything changing in that part of the world; short of one 'side' or the other being totally wiped out, there will never be peace as we understand it. There's far too much animosity perpetuated down through the decades/centuries for any justification to truly shine through all of the prejudice and hate fostered on both sides.
Example: Arabs fire missiles at settlement/school/residential area and kill some Israelis/civilians. Israelis air strike a school/residential area/possible terrorist Arabs/civilians.
I ask you, how can you have progress when faced with that?
The 'cease-fires' are merely that, a temporary cessation of shooting, not a lasting resolve or peace.

If you believe in God or whatever, then tough luck - The Holy Land won't be worth **** by the time they're all finnished with it. :nope:

Well said. I hate it when the Right Wingers say that they are stealing our freedom or hate the US because of our freedom. That's total BS. They hate us because we are taking away their freedoms in their lands. I am talking about Iraq. We invaded this country to steal their oil. The invastion of Iraq and the occupation of this middle east country has stirred up the biggest hornets next in the history of mankind. Just wait until Iran gets the bomb. It won't be much longer and they have increased their numbers of centrifuges that are being used to enrich uranium so that they can build atomic bombs by the dozens.

As gas price continue to rise the American Public will get madder and madder until all hell breaks loose here.

China will want its share of the oil in the middle east and so will India. Pakistan already has atomic weapons and that is why we (USA) won't go into Pakistan to pull Bin Ladin out of there. Remember when Bush said that any country that harbors Al Queda would be our enemy. He said you are either with us or against us. Well if Pakistan is harboring Bin Ladin and the other Al Queda and Taliban troublemakers then Pakistan is not with us. That's pretty obvious to see.

But hell the Oil Companies are getting what they want out of Bush's Presidency. Higher Oil and Gas Prices and Record Profits for the stock owners and CEO' of EXXON and SHELL and BP.

You way over simplify a very complex situation.

There is no "One" man or thing to hang the blame on...it is the cumulation of thousands of years killing by all sides each laying claim to lands that no-one can own truly...can an immortal being that lives barley a hundred years posses the Earth which has stood for thousands...or millions if your an evolutionist?

No

Herein lies our own judgement...that we love Death more than Life.We will all reap what we have sown....get over it.

Carry a gun, die by a gun...have nuclear bombs, it is only a matter of time when some will go off.Live by the sword, die by it.

Prepare yourselves is the only wise thing you can do...prepare your soul to meet it's maker.

http://www.psotd.com/files/T304824A.jpg

hey, thats the four horsemen!

they look mean

christ its all doom and gloom! :shifty:

Really, what we have now is Old news.

There's always been a Conflict between the Religious groups, and that will never end.

because really who's right in this Conflict?

we all do terrible things to eachother in the name of God.
silly thought in the end...we do it for the same figure.

most of the wars have been fought because of religious causes.
and if you look close enough, you cant understand why we do it.

my thoughts
HunterICX