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[TEC] Crash Speed

I am moving this discussion out of the original thread - It is no longer about zones.cfg.

This is the 1st test of crash Speed. See below for 2nd test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

New test of 367ft crash depth. Porpoise in Quick Mission Photo Recon

Pseudo log
17:50 352ft Silent Running - f9 compartment has some flashing of lights.
18:00 353ft 1.5kt
18:10 353
18:12 353 occasional Flashing lights in F2 compartment.
18:15 353 no damage
18:17 353 Rig Red
18:20 353 Battle Stations & Damage Crew
18:25 353 Secure from Silent .050720 HULL Damage
18:51 353 Graphical leak in F2 - probably started earlier was using TC
18:51 353 Periscope Depth .229138 HULL Damage
18:54 054 .229138 HULL Damage
18:55 Surfaced - Charging
19:00 Crash Dive
19:01 157 Ahead Std Order 368 feet
19:02 295 Ahead Slow
19:05 350 3kts
19:07 364 flashing lights an sporadic leaks in F2
19:08 367 Silent Running
19:10 368 1.5kt .289664 HULL Damage
19:15 368 1.5kt .289664
19:25 368 1.5 .289664 Major flashing
19:45 369 1.5 .482148 HULL Damage
19:46 369 Taking Damage, Pressure Hull, Batteries --- HULL Damage @ 1.000000 - ouch - was this because i exceeded .499992 and flash flooded ?
19:46 369 Blow Ballast, Surface, Ahead Full
19:47 3-> Laundry list of broken components. No scew turns.
19:48 325 Diesel fuel gone.
19:48 325 Swirl of Death

This felt right. No 3rd party damage in the equation, just hull stressing. Fudge factor in place - starts to degrade hull above crush - it is not a switch. A quick visit to crush and pop back up would probably not effect hull. Hanging out there is risky. It IS a snowball effect

Creep speeds can hold depth if you are undamaged and not leaking. Even works with weak hull. Sub interior gives sufficient clues when you are too deep. Ignore at your own risk.

One hour just above crush - hull at 77% - normal trim and operations. At 77%, can take another 30 minutes at crush. But that is IT. When it fails it fails. Zero flooding until hull fails, minor graphical leaks only.. nothing in saves except hull damage.

Hull failure was catostrophic. Flooding time was not a factor.

I am pretty eager to play these settings vs a few scattered DC's.

Settings used:

NSS_Porpoise.cfg
;===============
max depth set to 250m 820ft (allows suicide dive)

NSS_Porpoise.zon
;==========
Hull HP 425 ; stock is 320?
Crash Depth 112m 367ft - US Navy figures (250 test x 1.5 = crash)
Crash Speed .025 - I am thinking maybe slightly slower (2x) would be perfect.

Zones.cfg
;================
; New Sub Section
;================

[PeriscopeAttack]
Critic Flotation=0.499992 ;;; use lower to see if capped at 50% ?
FloodingTime=200000 ; .000005 a tad faster than slowest

[PeriscopeObservation]
Critic Flotation=0.333333
FloodingTime=1000000 ; .000001 is slowest possible leak
;================

Save files show settings from attack scope were used.

Bulkhead types were set to NULL instead of Wall, but did not seem to be a factor in this scenario. When your hull hits 1.000000 its over. It just lets you play a couple more minutes ;)

Problems I am noticing...
Everything. Gets. Damaged.
Batteries. Always. Die. Hard.
Pumps are self sufficient.

2nd Test:
Using same settings EXCEPT
Crash Speed now set to .0112
My current working formula is Crash Speed = Crash Depth/10000.

17:45 Surfaced. Ahead Std. Order 353ft
17:54 352 Ahead Slow
18:00 353 1.5kt 0.000000 HULL Damage
18:30 353 1.5kt 0.050673 HULL Damage
18:40 353 1.5kt 0.050673 HULL Damage
18:50 353 1.5kt 0.083175 HULL Damage
19:00 353 1.5kt 0.083175 HULL Damage
19:10 353 1.5kt 0.119435 HULL Damage
19:20 353 1.5kt 0.119435 HULL Damage
19:30 353 1.5kt 0.160132 HULL Damage
19:45 353 1.5kt 0.160132 HULL Damage
20:00 353 1.5kt 0.206295 HULL Damage
20:15 353 1.5kt 0.259369 HULL Damage
20:30 353 1.5kt 0.321517 HULL Damage
20:45 353 1.5kt 0.321517 HULL Damage
21:00 353 1.5kt 0.396465 HULL Damage
21:15 353 1.5kt 0.490481 HULL Damage
21:20 353 1.5kt 0.490481 HULL Damage
21:30 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:40 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:45 353 1.5kt 0.619062 HULL Damage
21:50 353 1.5kt 0.842818 HULL Damage
21:54 Taking Damage Sir
21:54 Batteries 25%
21:54 Batteries Discharged
21:54 Taking Damage Sir
21:54 353 1.5kt 1.000000 HULL Damage
21:55 Laundry List, Death Swirl.

Exactly 4 hours just above crush...

Question: Is pressure modeled, and if so how ?
a) Will it have same rate of damage below crush ?
b) Will it have same rate just above a deeper crush value ?

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep. Relative depth (to Crash) determines how much damage is inflicted. Hopefully, absolute depth is modeled also. Will test these questions next.

My opinion is that a hull failure after 4 hours at ~crush is pretty fair. Thoughts ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.

Then... a bigger value will means a slowly hull destroy ?

in example a value of 10 means the damage is checked avery 10 senods ?

And will be a slow sink than with a vlaue of 1 ?

Wonderful research !!! :up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.

No, the default value is 2.0, which is very fast. I used 0.025, which sank me in about 1.5 hours, then 0.0112 which took 4 hours.

Smaller speed = less frequent damage check. I do not have any data on how it relates to minutes or seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Suspicions: I think Crash Speed simply sets frequency at which depth is checked and damage is inflicted if too deep.

Ok.... :up::up::up:

More tests - same settings.
Test Depth is 246 75m
Crash Depth is 367ft 112m
Crash Speed is .0112

241ft @ 1.5kt - no damage until I got DC'd and sunk at 5h 19m. lol
246ft Test Depth
252ft @ 1.5kt - no damage after 9 hours, dive to 400 ft, surface, zero damage.
277ft @ 1.5kt - 4% at 3h, Crash at 5h 57m
328ft @ 1.5kt - 14% at 2h, Crash at 4h 47m
353ft @ 1.5kt - 5% at 30min, 39%3h, Crash 4h
367ft Crash Depth
382ft @ 1.5kt - 6% at 30min, 61% 3h, Crash 3h 12m
408ft @ 1.5kt - 8% in 30min, 65% at 2.5h, Crash 2h 46m

Looks like pressure is factored, but relative to Test depth not Crash.

I will test a Balao next.
Comments ?

Gato tests (Balao was too annoying with 450 ft dials)

500 hp
.0135 Crash Speed
135m Crash Depth (443ft)
90m Implied Test Depth (295ft)
1.5kt Ahead 1/3

310ft - after 18 hours only .0011 damage
318ft - after 9 hours only .0012 damage
330ft - after 6 hours .10 damage, 9 hours .25, 11h 46m crush
401ft - after 3 hours .31 damage, 4h 34m crush

Damage is applied shortly after test depth instead of near crash depth.

My thinking is that damage should not be applied until you get nearer crash depth, and then it should be less gradual than the tests above, but not instant pop.

To accomplish that with the way things work will require "padding" crash depth - I will use about 1.45 * desired value - and increase crash speed. This will also result in a more "fuzzy" setting.

I am thinking for my next test of the Gato,
195m crash (639ft)
.195 crash speed
128m implied "test" depth (420ft) - ~130m start taking damage (~426ft)

Thoughts ?

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

Not if you get back up before the hull is crushed ;)

Crash Speed has a lot to do with that.
Default is 2
I am currently using .01+++ - less than 1% of default
Next test will use .1+++ between 5%-10% of default

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

You dont understand me...:up: if you pass the crush depth, but with a slow crashspeed you are able to rise your sub to shallow depths, the hull continues its damage and destroy proccess ?

That seems to happen with the curious "unreversible sink"....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

I do not believe the irresistable sink is related to the hull. You can hold depth with creep speed until the second the hull collapses. I have not tested taking a damaged hull back up to safe levels for extended periods, but the short pop back up to surface I did in test one leads me to believe that going back above test with a 50% hull will stop the damage. I will take a stressed hull back up above test and check it for an extended period tonight.

It is my thought that the unreversable sink is related to bulkhead and compartment damage. Which reminds me, I need to set my bulkheads back to type=wall and repeat some of these tests for a sanity check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Good ! :up:

Nothing seems to works to avoid the unreversible sink... :hmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Many thanks, Very interesting... :up:

After pass the crush depth.... you still having the irreversible sinking ?

OK Redwine, I tested your question

Same Gato as before, same settings
Before : 401ft - after 3 hours .31 damage, 4h 34m crush
Now: 401ft = after 3.5 hours .373276 Damage.
Order PD recheck - same damage
Cruise at PD 6 hours. Damage is now .424262 - 5% more damage.
Order Surface, recharge.
Order PD. Cruise 6 hours. Damage stable
Cruise addition 4 hours. Damage stable.
Order Surface, recharge.
Order depth 149.
After 2 hours no additional damage
After 8 hours no additional damage.

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable. Please note that this is 100% just hull damage that NEVER shows up anywhere except the save game, and that you never have any trouble keeping depth with 1/3 Ahead. In game the only clue you have is blinking lights and occasional minor graphical leaks.

I am going to redo this test with my bulkheads set back to type=wall. I expect no major difference.

Repeated test with stock bulkheads. Test was almost dead on repeat, within 1%, except this time when I surfaced and reset the damage flags (?), I took light deck gun damage and hull was damaged from .418321 to .500452. I repeated the test from that point on with the same results as far as the hull damage goes - it was stabilized once I surfaced.

However, the deck gun damage just had to spread to both aa guns... that is a seperate and ugly feature that I sure hope is fixed in 1.2...

OK next I am going to test the padded crash depth with faster crash speed. I am aiming for damage that is more sudden and serious, and closer to crash depth than test. I find it silly taking damage barely over test depth.

I do thank you for going through the trouble to make these good discoverys.

I had some damage with a graphical picture of a pipe water burst (but no sound??). I wonder about. I had damage that was fixed. So I went to surface and the water finally leak stopped. I guess it reset as you said.

I was able to back to periscope depth without no more hull continue to show crush damage (steam, extra light blink, electrical spark but no sound), unti I went 200 feet then I got the death spiral.

So that would explain it. If you have damage to pressure hull, even though it is fixed, you still get damage some until you surface to stop the further damage and it resets. Still learning your data results.:cool:

New Gato. 500HP.
I tried at desired crash x 1.45 (135 x 1.45 = 195m) for the padding
I set crash speed to .0426 which was about the depth i expected to take damage (more importantly a little over double my previous number).
I found I took no damage even at hours at 440ft, so I blew tanks.

I tried desired crash x 1.33 (135 x 1.33 = 180m) for the padding
I tried desired crash in feet/10000 as crash speed (.0442)

09:05 order 408 1/3
12:00 0% hull damage order 436ft
13:00 .022741
14:00 .090800
15:36 1.000000 Crash
----- reloaded 14:00
15:00 .247431
15:15 .359715
15:25 .565042
15:30 .565042
15:35 .565042 (immediate crash when resume)
----- reloaded 15:25 ordered surface std blow tanks
15:30 .612368 on surface std
15:30 ordered 100 1/3
18:30 .630399
20:00 .630399 Order PD
02:00 .630399

This seems maybe too gentle to me (edit:maybe not - just noticed 3.5h instead of 5.5h - tired and sloppy). Basically on the high side of the damage zone, it is taking 3.5 hours (not 5.5) to crush. Also the slower crash speed may be exploitable for quick trips to 600 and back... note the 10+ minutes without a damage pulse above. I do like that the damage starts around where it does though, the padding x1.33 is decent.

Thoughts ?

Quote:

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface.

Thats what ive experienced. You know , i was just thinking. In SH3 there was basically just one pressurehull. While there was compartments, the overall pressurehull seemed to act as one singular object. Or at least, so is my impression. BUt in SH4, its like.. we now have 4 or 5 different pressurehulls, and each one acts like it's the only pressurehull in the boat, as indicated by how EVERYTHING goes after any single one folds in. In otherwords, its not localized anymore. If the hull was localized, then only one compartment would be damaged, no?

it's late, im tired and rambeling. :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable.

That was parto of my question, the damage seems to continues when submerged, i exoerienced the same, but i let the sub on surface later, i receive the message all damage reapired sir, or so similar, and sail a good time.... bulkhead repaired, and when submerged another time.... the ship starts to sink.

The intersting if this way can works is... if we can reduce the crash speed, to a balanced value, to give you time to reach the surface and repair the hulll.

The matter is, after a good time of surface sailing, if you can dive another time without sink.

This way can have a good and a bad point.

The good is, may be we have a chance to avoid the "unreversable sink", the bad is the sub become so resistent to the "crush pressure"

:up::up::up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface. Once you do so, the sub should be somewhat servicable.

Hull damage acts entirely differently than battle damage. I am finding hull damage to be modeled fairly sanely, other than the bizarre need to completely surface. I guess you can think of it as a chance to inspect and patch

Compartment and equipment on the other hand, do all kinds of unexpected things, especially bulkheads. Bulkheads get referred to as "pressure hull damage" but they are simply components, supposedly interior walls, that act like they are exterior walls. They do not influence the hull HP as far as I can tell, but they do have a dramatic impact on displacement. They should isolate leaks to a single compartment, problem is when a compartment gets damaged, nearly -everything- in the compartment is toast - meaning no leak isolation. As far as I see, bulkheads are more of a problem than a cool addition. I hope this is one of the things they tweak in 1.2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Quote:

So it seems that once you start damage, it will continue until you surface.

I think the hull is still a singular opject, and it can be tweaked to act reasonably.

The problem starts when they start taking internal components and assigning them hull duties, and making us all think there are multiple hulls. Yes I know IRL bulkheads provide structural integrity, but lack of it it should have simply inflicted damage to the singular hull, and not be capable of starting leaks - their role is to contain them once started.

Instead they make the boat seem like its falling apart and suddenly made of lead.

I have been DC'd or attacked by AC several times while testing and have played them out - I really do think the type=wall/null makes bulkheads act differently. I will be looking at compartment and equipment damage once I get the hull sorted out.

Everything at once damage is what make it not work for me.

Have you increased the Bullkhead hitpoints at all?

edit: it's that bloody chain reaction, domino effect. Seems to me thats the crux of the problem. I know im citing the obvious thats already been covered, im just thinking aloud is all, i havent gone back to look at this issue in awhile. Might be a moot point anyway, as the next patch notes said their tweaking sub damage model.