Crab Walk
 

I was just reading Crab Walk by Gunter Grass. It's about sinking of the Wilhelm Gustoff by the Russians in 1945.

Very good.

Ah the greatest ship sinking disaster

:nope:
Some sources put the figure as high as 10,000 + on board

The ships webbie here
http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/

that sub commander also sank a hospitol ship later in the war, and was awarded hero of the soviet union. What a *****

Yes, it was captain Marinescu. Soviet goverment rejected German request to abide regarding the immunity of hospital ships.

It was bloody war...

A real tragedy that sadly was never recognised by the soviets :nope:

Easy to get carried away i suppose. Look at Morton in Wahoo. He got a navy cross for doing something that would have had him standing in Nuremburg had he been on the other side

That's true but USA, Soviet Union and other allies won WWII.

I suppose though we should consider the Pshycology and Disposition of
the Soviet Peoples of the time from their perspective they were not
convinced of the Conduct of the Germans and of course Barbarossa
had engendered bitter hatred.

I Wonder if we all under such circumsances as they were under would
still retain our morale compunctions or as men of action both direct
and indirect would we see it as an expediency and justify it to
ourselves.:hmm:

Where is the heroics in sinking a hospital ship? Atrocities were not reserved for one side however.....:nope: :nope:

As I said on the other thread about Dudley W (Mush) Morton
Maybe the only people involved that understood what he was
doing were the Japanese soldiers in the water. Of all who have
visited the issues over the years that have advocated on their
behalf I believe only the Japanese in the water understood what
he was doing and I dont believe they would have percieved it
as a crime.

In true and Grimmer terms warfare isnt about heroics its about
winning by any means.

Oh please!! I can very well understand getting carried away in the heat of battle but to claim the poor bastards killed in the water would understand is a bit daft.

I disagree they would have willingly done it to the americans given a chance.

And you know this to be true? How about the Indian PoW's in the water with them? Would they have understood as well?

After reading a bit further on the site...It is apparent that the Gustoff was used as a troop carrier at one point as well as a hospital ship and even as a floating barracks for sailors....so it is possible the Soviet skipper did not realize it was full of refugees.....I guess.....the ship did not carry hospital ship markings at the time of her sinking...... War....Is an atrocity....

I didnt declare it as fact I offered it as speculative and in direct answer
no I dont recall mentioning anything of the POW's

Either way this debate isnt what this thread is about it should be taken up
on the Dudley W Mush Morton thread

Doesn't sound very speculative to me:D

Plenty of incidents to show the Japanese did do that sort of thing, that said no justification for this (at least he could have spared the Indian POWs), or probably the Wilhelm Gustoff (though I am not certain the Soviets knew what the ship was carrying).

I do get a little fed up with moral equivalence given by some to Axis and Allies, and I am also fed up with refusal to recognise all nations play the "bad guy" at some point. Example, Germany wanted to do to the USSR and Eastenr Europe (in a planned way) what Spain, England and France did to the Americas. Indians sometimes scalped and massacred whole settler familes but it was their land invaded.

More fuel for the fire.

No its not more fuel for the fire

It is not nations, Not American not British , not Geman japanese Russian
or chinese not Zulus not any nation that is ruthless.

its Humans

it just seems that with nations as with individuals
we have a hard time acknowledging our own flaws.

with nations as with individuals we have a propensity
for hypocrisy quite often and frequently show a willingness
to overlook our own transgressions.

this is the kind of thing that justifies war.
how Harris and Lemay were able to lay
waste on Europe and Japan after Rotterdam.

one strike wether or not it was recalled
by fourteen bombers justified an awful lot.
We do it too.

now thats more fuel for the fire.