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-   -   Targeting realism (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=105331)

Seth8530 02-07-07 07:39 PM
Targeting realism
 
Helo, im playing the game at 71% realism ( event cam and free cam on) So i want to know what is different about turning off wep officer assist and the other targeting things and how to target and fight with them off.

Puster Bill 02-07-07 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth8530
Helo, im playing the game at 71% realism ( event cam and free cam on) So i want to know what is different about turning off wep officer assist and the other targeting things and how to target and fight with them off.
If you turn off weapons officer assistance, you have to do all of the targeting yourself. That means you have to calculate range, find the AOB, and target speed all by your lonesome.

I'm now playing at 84% (no external or free cam, manual targeting but with WO assist). I keep WO assist because in real life, on the surface, the captain didn't collect the data for firing, the 1st Watch Officer did. The captain only did it in submerged attacks. So that is how I play.

As for how to do manual targeting, check the sticky threads at the top of this board.

Abd_von_Mumit 02-08-07 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth8530
Helo, im playing the game at 71% realism ( event cam and free cam on) So i want to know what is different about turning off wep officer assist and the other targeting things and how to target and fight with them off.
If you'd like to try manuall targeting, you must definitely read smashing Wazoo's manual.

Is there anything more to say? I don;t suppose so. :)

As to your questions about switching options on/off - don't know the answer. Never used them.

Corsair 02-08-07 05:22 AM
The problem I have with Weapon Officer Assist is that in any conditions he is able to give in 1 second the perfect firing solution. It would be nice if it was a real "assist" like an approximate range/speed and some delay to figure it out.
I used it as a confirmation feature though when I was starting using manual targeting just to see if my calculations were OK. After a while I stopped using it completely.

Kumando 02-08-07 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corsair
The problem I have with Weapon Officer Assist is that in any conditions he is able to give in 1 second the perfect firing solution. It would be nice if it was a real "assist" like an approximate range/speed and some delay to figure it out.
I used it as a confirmation feature though when I was starting using manual targeting just to see if my calculations were OK. After a while I stopped using it completely.
Ditto ;).

Tiny 02-08-07 05:48 AM
If you want to learn manual targeting follow the tutorial in SH3. Thats what I did...took a while to learn it but in the end I got it...fairly simple...just calculate range, AOB, speed and then check the square box in the target notepad (All is done in the periscope or UZO view).

I remember when I hadn't found out that you have to check the square box...and I went to put all the values manually into the TDC!...those shots shore got ****ed up. :88)

I think the ingame tutorial is the best, all I could find on the net was just super long bibles.:dead:

RawRecruit 02-08-07 06:11 AM
I also use the WO when surfaced. I know he computes the solutions very quickly, but from my reading I get the impression that the WO would be taking constant readings, bearings, etc, so I just imagine that he is doing this and is simply telling me what the current data is when I ask him.

Abd_von_Mumit 02-08-07 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny
I think the ingame tutorial is the best, all I could find on the net was just super long bibles.:dead:
Wazoo's method is much better and much more accurate in my opinion. And it looks hard only at the first glance. The manual is long - that's true - but it's that's long not without a purpose. Wazoo wanted to make it as simple and easy to understand, as possible. And he managed to do it. :)

RawRecruit 02-08-07 06:46 AM
There's lots of images that help too. :yep: When I read the 'fast 90' tutorial and employed the technique in game, my tonnage immediately went up.

DaChubby 02-08-07 07:02 AM
I play at 100% and though i read the wazoo manual, i found it to be to
complicated for quick action and i now use my own method.
I manvoeuver my sub to go ahead of the boat, then lay perpendicular.
Depending on wether the boat passes from left ot right or vice versa, the aob
is 90° or 270°. Works like a charm.
For the speed, i simply guess and that's when i sometimes miss or get a less than perfect hit (like in real life)

I think more real life uboat captains used this method rather than calculating
everything. Experience made them better at guessing speed, distance and aob.
At least, that's what i think.

Abd_von_Mumit 02-08-07 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaChubby
I play at 100% and though i read the wazoo manual, i found it to be to
complicated for quick action and i now use my own method.
I manvoeuver my sub to go ahead of the boat, then lay perpendicular.
Depending on wether the boat passes from left ot right or vice versa, the aob
is 90° or 270°. Works like a charm.
For the speed, i simply guess and that's when i sometimes miss or get a less than perfect hit (like in real life)

I think more real life uboat captains used this method rather than calculating
everything. Experience made them better at guessing speed, distance and aob.
At least, that's what i think.
Yes, I almost never do all the plotting now, I estimate the course and speed 'with my eyes' and just shoot. But I wouldn't ever be able to do that with quite large percentage of success, if not the Wazoo's manual and all the knowledge I got from:
- reading it very carefully,
- several long patrols when I used his method with every little detail (now I could do the plotting with my eyes closed when sleeping).
Once you get the skill of plotting and intercepting, your only remaining problem is to stay alive.

von Zelda 02-08-07 07:45 AM
Manual targeting
 
Target speed is the most important item in manual targeting. That said,
Plot target's initial position and note the time.
Plot subsequent target positions and plot target course.
Assuming you are on an intercept course, determine the AOB at your intercept point. With your periscope/uzo (bearing) at zero, enter this AOB into the target data computer. Also remember that the AOB most accurately reflect "starboard" or "port" which tells the TDC if the target is travelling left or right across your bow. As long as the target remains on this course, you can rotate the periscope/uzo and the TDC will always have the correct AOB.

Now, determine target speed. Note the most recent position of your target and the time. Measure from your first target position to your latest position. Determine the time interval between the two plots and use this formula: kmeters x 32.5 divided by minutes = estimated knots.
Enter this estimated speed directly into the TDC. If you make several measurements from the targets initial position as you move towards the intercept point, you'll have a good estimate of target speed before you're ready to launch.

AOB will not change as long as target course remains the same, just update target speed if it changes. In this method, you do not even need to concider range, it is not a factor. Accurate range will only affect the stop watch for the estimated impact time of torpedo.

I've have hit targets in excess of 6 kmeters with this method. Longer shots like these require a slow torpedo speed to cover the greater distance. Set the slow speed on the torpedo and the TDC will calculate the accurate offset angle for torpedo launch.

I hope this is helpful.

Jimbuna 02-08-07 07:51 AM
I keep Weapons Officer assistance on....mainly as a precautionary measure if things 'hot up' :arrgh!:

DrMilton 02-08-07 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Zelda
Target speed is the most important item in manual targeting. That said,
Plot target's initial position and note the time.
Plot subsequent target positions and plot target course.
Assuming you are on an intercept course, determine the AOB at your intercept point. With your periscope/uzo (bearing) at zero, enter this AOB into the target data computer. Also remember that the AOB most accurately reflect "starboard" or "port" which tells the TDC if the target is travelling left or right across your bow. As long as the target remains on this course, you can rotate the periscope/uzo and the TDC will always have the correct AOB.

Now, determine target speed. Note the most recent position of your target and the time. Measure from your first target position to your latest position. Determine the time interval between the two plots and use this formula: kmeters x 32.5 divided by minutes = estimated knots.
Enter this estimated speed directly into the TDC. If you make several measurements from the targets initial position as you move towards the intercept point, you'll have a good estimate of target speed before you're ready to launch.

AOB will not change as long as target course remains the same, just update target speed if it changes. In this method, you do not even need to concider range, it is not a factor. Accurate range will only affect the stop watch for the estimated impact time of torpedo.



I've have hit targets in excess of 6 kmeters with this method. Longer shots like these require a slow torpedo speed to cover the greater distance. Set the slow speed on the torpedo and the TDC will calculate the accurate offset angle for torpedo launch.

I hope this is helpful.

:rock: Excellent description ! Range is indeed not needed and you can even hit targets that you don't see, due to fog or because it is in your interest to stay submerged.

AndyW 02-08-07 10:33 AM
Are there any Youtube tutorial vids for manual targeting out there akin to Dantenoc's fantastic manual navigation tutorial?

Cheers,
AndyW

Finback 02-08-07 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RawRecruit
I also use the WO when surfaced. I know he computes the solutions very quickly, but from my reading I get the impression that the WO would be taking constant readings, bearings, etc, so I just imagine that he is doing this and is simply telling me what the current data is when I ask him.
This is the way I do it too. Early war when doing surface attacks (which are fairly easy if you're patient) I let the WO do the attck while I watch escorts and con the boat. I also let him id ships because--well--I'm basically lazy and find flipping through the book to do it manually.

Now a little bragging: I'm a better shot than my WO :yep: .

Cheers!!!

DrMilton 02-08-07 10:57 AM
It would be nice if you could select exactly how much help your WE will give you. Instead of write him off or having him do all the work, you could have him determine only one or two things (ID, AOB etc.) and leave the rest to you. I am pretty sure that uboat commanders had something to do with the targeting process and not only when submerged.

RawRecruit 02-08-07 11:02 AM
From all the reading I've done, whilst on the surface the Kaleun merely picks targets, which is what you do through the UZO. Of course, some grogs may pop up and say otherwise, but that's certainly the impression I get....

Abd_von_Mumit 02-08-07 11:15 AM
I don't use WO assistance and for many GWX patrols I haven't even manned the WO station. But recently I discovered a wonderfull feature: WO is the guy who's going to tell you "We're under attack", "We've been spotted" and for a few recent patrols when in combat area I place my navigator guy in the WO station just for hearing these reports. I don't like being shot at and not even know about it (happened to me earlier). I think that should be definitely reported by the watchman, but I have to take it as it is...

EDIT: I think it's also WO who tells you "A destroyer in attack run!", as I've met this report only after I started manning his station. Never even knew before about it's existance.

mheil 02-08-07 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMilton
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Zelda
Target speed is the most important item in manual targeting. That said,
Plot target's initial position and note the time.
Plot subsequent target positions and plot target course.
Assuming you are on an intercept course, determine the AOB at your intercept point. With your periscope/uzo (bearing) at zero, enter this AOB into the target data computer. Also remember that the AOB most accurately reflect "starboard" or "port" which tells the TDC if the target is travelling left or right across your bow. As long as the target remains on this course, you can rotate the periscope/uzo and the TDC will always have the correct AOB.

Now, determine target speed. Note the most recent position of your target and the time. Measure from your first target position to your latest position. Determine the time interval between the two plots and use this formula: kmeters x 32.5 divided by minutes = estimated knots.
Enter this estimated speed directly into the TDC. If you make several measurements from the targets initial position as you move towards the intercept point, you'll have a good estimate of target speed before you're ready to launch.

AOB will not change as long as target course remains the same, just update target speed if it changes. In this method, you do not even need to concider range, it is not a factor. Accurate range will only affect the stop watch for the estimated impact time of torpedo.




I've have hit targets in excess of 6 kmeters with this method. Longer shots like these require a slow torpedo speed to cover the greater distance. Set the slow speed on the torpedo and the TDC will calculate the accurate offset angle for torpedo launch.

I hope this is helpful.

:rock: Excellent description ! Range is indeed not needed and you can even hit targets that you don't see, due to fog or because it is in your interest to stay submerged.
That method works, keep in mind that your course can't change either. So you either don't change course or set up the shot based on a future position. I'll usually set up the shot while I'm taking readings on his speed and course.


Yes I've used this method to hit ships lining up the periscope to read the hydrophones reading. I was close to the ship 400-600m and it was a sormy night no visability, I had gotten good fixes on him earlier and used this to line up a good position shot. I assumed the hydrophone's reading would be aft of the actual ship location and offset my scope a little foward of the hydrophone's reading. 2 torps and one hit. She sunk. The missed torp went in front and the second went amidships. That made me think that the hydrophone reading is actually from amidships, not where the screws are.


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