SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - [REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10

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- - [REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10 (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172535)

The nomograph is basically a calculator.
You have 3 variables in this calculator - time, speed and distance.
If you know any two of these values, you can quickly and easily calculate the third, by just lining up the known values with the ruler.

Example - calculating speed.

I know my target has travelled 6000 yards in 15 minutes.
Take the ruler, start on the 15 minute mark, drag it over the 6000 yard mark, and extend it past the speed estimate line.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/95/speedy.jpg

As you can see, my target has a calculated speed of 12 knots.

Oh man, how easy was that! :03:

Example 2 - time to intercept

I know a task force is headed my way. It's making 20 knots, and is about 6 miles away. So that I don't panic, I want to know how much time I have to prepare.

Take the ruler, start on the 20 knot mark and drag it through the 6 mile mark.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4894/timezx.jpg

I can see from my calculation I have about 18 minutes before they run over me.

The nomograph, a massively useful tool - don't leave home without it.

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to answer anyone's question. I just noticed that JC was plotting range and bearing with protractor and ruler using relative bearing off the subs course. I do indeed plot range and bearing with just the ruler and true bearing. It was just a tip to anyone that might find it easier and didn't know you could do it that way. It saves time and messing about... There is so much to learn. I am always learning new ways of looking at it :hmmm: not trying to confuse anyone

@ I'm goin down. Thanks for Clarification. That's basically what i was doing, so i'm glad i got that right.

@ Sergei, Many thanks. It's one of those thing's that's really so simple once it gets pointed out to you. I appreciate the help :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down (Post 1467322)

Uoading of screenshots turned into a disaster. I quit trying.

Here is an update. I figured out the 3D TDC target course setting protocol. In determining a target's course I do not know why one would fiddle with the target dial on the upper left of the 3D TDC by dragging the white triangle to match its plotted course. That dial appears useless when initially inputting a target's course. The dial that initially affects the target's course is the target dial on the upper RIGHT of the 3D TDC. That is what worked for me. First, I open the stadimeter to the Aob dial. Second, I open the 3D TDC and set the target's course via the target dial on the upper RIGHT. Third, I open the the stadimeter's Aob dial and send the target's course to the TDC. Fourth, I open the 3D TDC to verify it has accepted the data re the course change. If the course change has been accepted, the target dial on the upper left on the 3D TDC snaps to the new course. If this procedure is correct, then I have solved the target course problem I was having. I used this procedure to sink the slow target in the the third training mission.

Here are some other questions and comments.

First, in Channing's tutorial he notes that after plotting 3 or 4 entries one has determined the target's preliminary range, course and speed. Actually, you one has not determined preliminary speed. One has determined preliminary range and course only. I think the comment re speed is a mistake.

Second, what is the point of turning the radar off. Two times in the tutorial, the reader is instructed to turn radar off. His initial instructions notes that turning of radar is an important step. I do not understand why or the importance of doing so. It this instruction necessary or important?

Third, and this is a major question. The tutorial instructs the reader to set speed via the 3 minute rule. This is a pain the ass, and using the stop watch in combo with range/bearing readings is not precise because you are taking a range and bearing, starting the watch, switching screens to plot, switiiching screens to send the range, and at the end of three minutes, doing it again. Question No. 3: Why can't the reader rely on the watch button on the stadimeter speed dial, take two range and bearing readings, and rely the radarman's calculation of speed? I believe URGE or Hitman noted that this was an alternative. I would save time and needless plotting.

Once the TDC is in operation, one can verify if the course is accurate on the Attack Map. If it appears inaccurate, additional range and bearing readings will assist in providing correct information. If range is the only issue, one can adjust it via the range dial on the stadimeter.

I note that I missed six shots at the second tanker in the Mission 3 tutorial (the one approaching from 70 degrees starboard), but not by much. The tanker approached fairly quickly, and I was compelled to turn my boat 90 degrees to starboard to have a better (but not great) angle for an attack. I measured the tanker's speed at 14.25 kts. which was probably too slow. Its course was 220 degrees which appeared fairly accurate. The shots missed aft of the tanker by a few hundred yds. The problem here was the closing speed of the tanker, as it was passing my boat before I had a completed the set up. If I had spotted it at 20K yds. rather tan 12K yds., I might have fared better. Comments are appreciated.

I had map contacts on during this exercise, but my range and bearing for both tankers (the slow and faster one) we accurate. I simply had more time to set up for the slower target, plus I used the speed announced by the radarman for the slower target and I used the 3 minute speed rule for the faster one.

OK... let's deal with some of your unanswered questions.

1) The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

2) Already answered (and call me John :DL)

3) Part 1- There is a bug in the game that when you leave the radar "station" it will go from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. There is no way to prevent it. Turning off the radar means the radar bearing sweep will stay in the position that it was in when you turned it off. In fast developing scenarios you don't want to waste time finding your blips!

Part 2- Sometimes I find the "watch button" unreliable. It's important to note that even today they till have a full manual tracking party developing a solution alongside the BSY Series combat systems. Having two systems mens better results. OK... it a personal thing. I don't trust some of the game mechanics.

Lastly if you have a rapidly closing target just move to about 1200 yds off his track and change your course to match his and match his speed. Now he isn't closing anymore and you will have all the time you need. Once you are happy with your solution slow down, change course to close his track, submerge and shoot.

JCC

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowfin (Post 1467463)

I thought your explanation was very clear and very helpful. The previous version of the radar mod had the radar train bearing indicator (the thing in your first screenshot) calibrated accurately, as the stock one is quite badly off as the textures aren't centred, so you'll get errors creeping in if you read the values off it of a couple of degrees in some cases, which can cause problems with your plot.

Would it help if I put in some digital readouts of the true bearing? The way the real indicator worked (with the concentric dials) was good, but the eye's resolution is far greater than what you can show easily and clearly on the screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing (Post 1467497)

1) The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

As this dial seems to be causing some confusion, I'm thinking about remodelling it. First, to give the proper AOBs rather than just the visual indication you get now and second to add a pointer, that will go the other way that will point to the target course. E.G. if you queue a change of the AOB from 70 starboard set to 50 degrees starboard, then one pointer would go to 50 Degrees Starbaord and one pointer would go 20 degrees in the other direction to point at the new course. I think this would be clearer. Any thoughts on this anyone? This is an evolving project after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis (Post 1467784)

Would it help if I put in some digital readouts of the true course?

Do you mean true bearing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergei (Post 1467798)

Do you mean true bearing?

I was sure that's what I had said :hmmm:. Yes, true radar bearing to target on the radar station, just to make things easy, accurate and fast.

Oh btw thanks for the explanation about the nomograph. I never knew how that worked :DL. Who did that mod?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis (Post 1467802)

I'm sure that's what I said :hmmm:

That's what is says now.
Maybe I quoted you as you were still editing your post? :03:

A digital readout of true bearing would greatly simplify the plotting task.
No more screwing around with the protractor.
Just mark true bearing and range from the ruler, job done.
One tool to rule them all. :DL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis (Post 1467802)

Oh btw thanks for the explanation about the nomograph. I never knew how that worked :DL. Who did that mod?

That's no problem.
The nomograph is a massively useful little tool.
I couldn't imagine playing the game without it.
There are various versions available on the forum, so I couldn't say who made it originally.
The one you see in my screenshots comes as part of TMO 2.0.
I believe RFB also comes with a nomograph.

After reading your post re the Nomograph, I had a wonderful night's sleep dreaming of the how I won the Battle of the Philipine Sea with my Nomograph. You screenies of the Nomograph posted this morning were also excellent! Very, very nice job from a senior skipper!:up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergei (Post 1467826)

That's what is says now.
Maybe I quoted you as you were still editing your post? :03:

Hmmm, you did it again. I editted the last post to say 'I was sure that's what I had said' because I did get it wrong, but wanted to make it clear that it was editted, but then you went and ninja quoted me again! You've got to be quick round here! :DL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis (Post 1467843)

You've got to be quick round here! :DL

I've had a lot of coffee today Nisgeis, what can I say? :DL

EDIT: I've just checked the TMO Manual.
Someone called Hildofr is credited with the Nomograph.

what buttons do I hit to multi quote a message? I cannot figure it out.

Nisgeis and Bowfin - Bowfin was right re true course to plot from the range and bearing readings. I was wrong. I did not realize the that the dial on the ceiling near the A scope contained both true and relative courses. A close reading of Nisgeis positive feedback re Bowfin's post caused me to take a second look. Nisgeis, if you can add the true bearing digital readout to the mod as you suggested it would probably improve the mod for those of us, like me, who prefer dinner handed to them on a silver platter. Good find, Captain Bowfin!:yeah:

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down (Post 1467859)

what buttons do I hit to multi quote a message? I cannot figure it out.

Hit the button next to the quote button. It's the one with the + on it and the tooltip will say 'Multi-Quote This Message'. You have to be logged in initially for it to even appear. Nothing will happen at first, but click each post you want to quote until you get to the last post you want to quote, then click the normal quote button (Reply With Quote). The editor will then appear with all the messages you queued up in it.

Excellent reply. Thank you, thank you, thank you (he said falling all over himself)!

I have copied your reply below, with this suggestion. You numbering is confusing and does not track my post. I have bolded and underlined what I think are the corrections that will minimize reader confusion. If you correct your respones, PM me and I will delete this post. Here we go:

OK... let's deal with some of your unanswered questions.

Introductory Paragraph: The only reason for using the "Target " dial is that it makes the outer arrow on the "Target Course" dial move much faster than just clicking in the "Target Course" dial. You can get to the speed quicker. If just working with the "Target Course" dial works for you, go with it.

1) Already answered (and call me John.) See Sergei's post re the Nomograph.

2) - There is a bug in the game that when you leave the radar "station" it will go from "Focus" to "Sweep" mode. There is no way to prevent it. Turning off the radar means the radar bearing sweep will stay in the position that it was in when you turned it off. In fast developing scenarios you don't want to waste time finding your blips!

3)- Sometimes I find the "watch button" unreliable. It's important to note that even today they till have a full manual tracking party developing a solution alongside the BSY Series combat systems. Having two systems mens better results. OK... it a personal thing. I don't trust some of the game mechanics.

Lastly if you have a rapidly closing target just move to about 1200 yds off his track and change your course to match his and match his speed. Now he isn't closing anymore and you will have all the time you need. Once you are happy with your solution slow down, change course to close his track, submerge and shoot.

JCC

I think the bolded portions make your response line up with my questions, but it is your call.

thanks for the instructions re multi quoting a message. I would have never figured it out.

BTW - you did not know how to use the Nomograph? That is quite surprising given your detailed analytical approach to the Sim. I wonder if aaronblood, the creator of the amazing MoBo program, has the same issue.:DL
Will wonders never cease?

It just goes to show all of us idiots that all is not lost. There is hope for us, even if we are not among the sharpest knives in the drawer.

I read some posts a while ago about the Nomograph. They discussed it and were wondering when it would be modded into the game. I think it happened quite some time ago, but I am not going to search for it as I don't have time right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergei (Post 1467847)

Someone called Hildofr is credited with the Nomograph.

I found the thread he posted it in. He only posted twice on subsim and the first one was to post up a link to the imperial nomograph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis (Post 1467930)

I found the thread he posted it in. He only posted twice on subsim and the first one was to post up a link to the imperial nomograph.

I tried to multi quote the post from Nisgeis above and it failed again!! I need a walk through as I am not getting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down (Post 1467945)

I tried to multi quote the post from Nisgeis above and it failed again!! I need a walk through as I am not getting it.

Try this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ht=multi-quote

Battle of the Philipine Sea

I am there, and waving my 3D TDC in the faces of the Jap fleet. But I got a problem. A Jap task force is coming right at me. My radarman says there are lots and lots of targets on his radar screen. So, you say, what's the problem? Well sir, I am trying to get a fix on one target as I manuever for position, so I can plot its course and use my trusty NOMOGRAPH to calculate it speed (hats off to Sergei). I see a lot of spikes on the A scope as I peer over the radarman's shoulder (he needs to take a bath!). How do I know I am tracking the same target? I am getting range and bearing readings all over the place. I stopped the game and will replay from the point of first contact once I figure this out. (Just my luck. When I am all set to go, there are too many ducks on the pond.)

Second problem. I can read the digital bearing on the ceiling, but I cannot zoom in close enough to read the true or relative bearing on the actual tool (it looks like a compass.) Thus, Bowfin's secret tip on plotting using the true bearing may not be feasible.:wah: Any suggestions? (Nisgeis, a digital read out of true bearing would be a nice addition.)