Some more (unpleasant) reading material:

Christianity and Islam: more in common than differences?

i agree, that's a pretty unpleasant article to wade through.

So are we expected to take this author's message as an objective, rational analysis? He seems to be wearing his heart on his sleeve.

From the discussion below the main article--

[/quote]

abraham i completely agree with you -- when the arab leadership, both political and ideological, sticks to the moral message of the quran, and lives and leads by those morals, the world will be a better place.

First, there's plenty of passages in the Old and New Testament in which a wratchful God smites "unbelievers" and encourages his followers to do so. Why don't you quote those lines?

Second, there's a difference in the Quran between tolerance of those peacefully observing the Christian and Jewish faiths, and fighting against those who are actively persecuting Muslims or the Islamic faith.

Possibly more so than we are to take your personal response as such.

Speaking from a Jewish point of view, the Quran outrightly calls the Jews liars and corrupters of the Torah.

I'm sure there are similar feeling from Christians who believe in the concept of trinity, which the Quran completely negates as a lie.
Did Christians do all this because Jesus instructed them to? Where is this commanded in the New Testament?

you're making my point...

specifically
1. that the interpretation of a religion by those with a political agenda casts a dark shadow upon that religion, that when we are examining it objectively, we should make an effort to separate

2. that islam is not the only religion that calls for punishment to be heaped upon the heads of those who are regarded as unbelievers or infidels or against the chosen of God.

Regarding my objectivity, I'm not hate-mongering, or calling my religion better than anyone elses. All I ask is for it to be viewed with the same objective, dispassionate lens that we view other religions through.

And I'm kind of upset that you think the author of that article is more objective than I am -- just because they lean towards your point of view doesn't make them right.

So the people in the World Trade Center, the Madrid trains, and the London Underground were or were not actively persecuting Muslims or the Islamic faith? Or is it their countries, the US, Spain and the UK?

Does this mean that there can never be a legitimate attack of infidels against Muslims?

Who decides what constitutes "active persecutions"?

What did all of Mesepotamia, the Levant, Egypt and N. Africa, the Balkans and much of southern Europe do in the 700's to qualify them as being persecutors of Muslims or the Islamic faith?

and i'm loving my new avatar (Wild night in Bangkok LOL)

You should be beheaded for bearing such an avatar! :o

EDIT: LOL! cant stop laughing

to paraphrase you
Did the terrorists do all this because Allah instructed them to? Where is this commanded in the Quran?

When was the last time in history that an attacked people wnt, "Oh, OK, I guess we deserved that. It was legitimate, let's sit back and chill."

Regarding Surah 109 AL-KAFIRUN (Those who reject faith) I would just like to make my comments on that. I interpret this in the same way as Caspofungin. Firstly this was one of the early Makka surahs. It defines the right atitude to those who reject faith: in matters of truth we can make no compromise, but here is no need to persecute or abuse anyone for his faith or belief.

1. Say: O ye
That reject faith! (a)
(a. Faith is a matter of personal conviction, and does not depend on worldly motives.)
2. I worship not that
Which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship
That which I worship. (b)
(b. Verses 2-3 describe the conditions as they were at the time when this surah was revealed, and may be freely paraphrased.)
4. And I will not worship
That which ye have been
Wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship
That which I worship. (c)
(c. Verses 4-5 describe the psychological reasons.)
6. To you be your way,
And to me mine. (d)
(d. 'I having been given the Truth, cannot come to your false ways: you, having your vested interests, will not give them up. For your ways the responsibility is yours: I have shown you the Truth. For my ways the responsibility is mine: you have no right to ask me to abandon the Truth.')

Now looking at Surah 6 AL-AN'AM, this was revealed during the late Makkan period. The greater part of it was revealed entire. It's place in the traditional order of placement is justified by logical considerations. In summary it says that -

The nature of God and the method by which He reveals Himself are first expounded, and the weakness of Paganism is exposed (6:1-30).
The emptiness of this world's life is contrasted with the evidences of Allah's wonderfull handiwork in all Creation. It is he who holds the keys of the Unseen and the secrets of all that we see (6:31-60).
Allah's working in His world and His constant care and guidance should give a clue to His unity as it did to Abraham when he argued with those who worshipped false gods (6:61-82).
The succession of prophets after Abraham kept Allah's truth alive, and led up to te Holy Qu'ran. How can man fail to understand the majesty and goodness of Allah, when he contemplates Allah's nature and His messages to Mankind? (6:83-110)
The obstinate and the rebellious are deceived: they should be avoided. Though they turn to assistance to each other, they will receive due punishment (6:111-129).
Allah's decrees will come to pass, in spite of all the crimes and superstitions of the ungodly (6:130-150).
The better course is to follow the straight Way, the Way of Allah, as directed in the Qu'ran, with untiy and the full dedication of our lives (6:151-165).

Now with specific regard to Ayah (verse) 125 of Surah 6 I wll address that in detail as best I can.

Those whom Allah (in His Plan)
Willeth to guide - He openeth
Their breast to Islam;
Those whom He willeth
To leave straying - He maketh
Their breast close and constricted,
As if they had to climb
Up to to skies: thus
Doth Allah (heap) the penalty
On those who refuse to believe. (a)
(a. Allah's Universal Plan is the qada wa qadr, which IMO is so misunderstood. That Plan is unalterable, and that is His Will. It means that in the spiritual world, as in the physical world, there are laws of justice, mercy, grace, penalty and so on which work as surely as anything we know. If then, a man refuses Faith, becomes a rebel, with each step he goes further and further down, and his pace will be accelerated; he will scarcely be able to take in effect what IMO is spiritual breath, and so his recovery - in spite of Allah's mercy which he has rejected - will be as difficult as if he had to climb up to the skies. On the other hand, the godly will find with each step, the next step easier. Jesus as I see it expressed this truth paradoxically: "He that hath, to him shall be given; but he that hath not, from his shall be taken away even that which he hath:" Mark. iv. 25. John (vi. 65) makes Jesus say: "No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my father."

That is it for now as Iftar is close approaching so I must have the dates and food all prepared for the breaking of fast as obviously we are in the month of Ramadhan.

I have read and listened to numerous Imams, Sheiks and Muslim religious scholars, who can rattle off the Quran and Hadiths in a flash, all saying pretty much the same thing and quoting the same passages.

You would think it would be so simple to disprove all of them by counter-proofs from the same books. Yet it's mostly working the other way around.

What do they all know that you don't know?
Anyone else around calling for and actually practicing dismemberment of their enemies and based on religious texts, no less?
I'm not saying that you personally are. Nevertheless, the lack of hatemongering does not guarantee objectivity.
That is not the point here.
So is criticism allowed? What do we do when we detect contradiction? What about when one religion's highly observant to the letter followers affects the lives of everyone else - not just in some Islamic country - but in much of the rest of the world?
You know that goes both ways. I can't prove the author's words are more objective than yours but you can't do the reverse either.

i can't and won't ban criticism. But I'll do my damndest to correct misinformation.

anyway, i'm off to operate on an infidel -- i'll try not to slip and cut her aorta, because somewhere in the past some imam told me it was my duty to do so :doh:

later, al, 1 last point

what terrorists are doing has more to do with the policies of the targeted countries than the fact that they are Christian or democratic. there's no bombs going off in Oslo or Zurich or Mexico City or Punta Arenas.

I missed this one earlier.

I can't respond for NT quotes but I'll be happy to respond to any from the Torah, if you please. :yep:

But I'm also low on time now. Maybe later tonight.

IRAN: Wipe Israel of face of the earth !
 

I really appreciate your honesty and open-mindedness.
We may agree or disagree (and we certainly do), but respect for the other is as good to give as it is to receive.
:up: