I can't get too high horse about it, because I know for certain that if we had the resources, technology and manpower that the US had we'd be doing exactly the same thing...well, heck, we are doing the same thing down at GCHQ. I dare say that the French have their own network, although without as much of the resources, and God alone knows what MOSSAD has.

If everyone else does it doesnt make it right.

I think the issue here is that some people have an illusion that US is a benighn actor and would not spy on it's allies.

Exactly.

No, but the only way to stop it would be to get everyone to stop it at the same time, it's like disarmament, no-one wants to be the guy to drop his pistol first just in case the other guy decides to shoot him.

That goes without saying, it's still worth some criticism though. I don't care who does what, and for me there's also no "us", since my government sure doesn't do what I agree with.

In the end, anything cyber-war is completely out of control, be it the CIA more or less spying illegally on everyone, or Russia heavily - and successfully - influencing Europe's political course, it's all bonkers.

And it won't end well at all...

There are some talks on that front. The issue is less with recon cyber and more with the offensive cyber.

This "news" fails to score a scandal. Its like it is always with human psychological adaptation: repeat something often enough, and what spiked a row back then, does not cause any uproar after some repetitions anymore. And why should people cry wolf indeed? The Russians manipulate public opinion and elections in several western countries. The British listen in to everything everywhere. The Germans are not as innocent as they claimed to be two years ago - just that their possibilities lack behind that of the GCHQ's and NSA's possibilities, both in quality and quantity (they even asked in the past to become member of the club of five eyes, but were refused to join). The internet of things get used to spy on people. Social media were in the headlines repeatedly. Companies' customer databases were repeatedly hacked and data corrupted. Windows 10 is snoopware and sellware, and people submit to it. And people warning and criticising these things - people like me for example - more and more resign and withdraw, quitting their inner ties with this society and crazyness all around.

This latest story is an old story, and so does not catch much attention anymore. Welcome in the bad brave new world.

Looks like EU Armed Forces are happening one way or another, with EU members integrating into Bundeswehr, ie:

In German:

a well-integrated third generation German Turk's consternation about the German appeasement policy.

https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommenta...ssungslos.html

In germany, in general you can note that the best and most competent arguments against Merkels mass migration nightmare are coming from integrated earlier migrants, and the best informed and most competent criticsm of Islam and dreams of Islam's ability to get integrated is coming from apostates and Muslims who had to flee from muslim theocracies, and that the only loud criticsm of Erdoghan is coming from a minority amongst the Turks living in Germany, (and of curse Kurdish groups).

Native Germans by majority, officials and citizens alike, still dream the dream of big illusions and self-deceptions. Islam means peace. Turkey is a friend. Integration of Muslim migrants works great.

Many people fled to germany in past decades, amongs them many women, in the hope that Germany would be a place where they would be protected against what they fled from. And now they see that Germany lets them down, and allows right the kind of evil that they once were running away from. And Germany is not even shameful enough to not claim moral reasons for this betrayal and cynical policy.

Ekelhaft.

Media say the Dutch asked Germany for help in their row with Turkey, and Germany let them down. It is little Denmark that jumps to Holland's support and has sided up with it today. Shame on Germany once again. Shame.

Did you really expect anything less? Like Merkel having a spine (well, I know you didn't but some people still do for reasons that are beyond me)?
There are a few million weaponized refugees waiting in Turkey to be let lose into Europe and both Erogan and Merkel know this. We've lost! We had lost the moment when we decided that others should be responsible for protecting our borders. We had lost when we didn't care for the refugee problems that haunted Greece and Italy for years. We had lost when we decided that Turkey has to be our friend and ally no matter what. I can only congratulate Erdogan. He's played all his cards and every one was higher than the ones we had. We've only one card left to play and that's tourism. But since we, as a people, don't give a sheet enough of us will still go there on vacation and leave their money there which Turkey so desperately needs.:/\\!!

If the future is so dark then what's the point in going forward to it? :hmmm:

What's the alternative? Blowing my brains out? Surrender and let it happen unopposed? All we can do is communicate with people. Change their perspective so that they won't fall for the garbage of the left that we're told but also to prevent them from believing all the unfounded garbage from the right that say the only solution to the problem would be to install the 4th Reich. We need to get the center of the political spectrum to act and not leave it to the far right/left which will happen if the center doesn't finally get it's act together.:/\\!!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...ch_468x538.jpg
http://www.misconceptionjunction.com...54-290x160.jpg

As long as it stays that way :O:

Implying that EU is not the 4th Reich.

Makes me wonder if this diplomatic crisis would actually turn into something significant.