In a sort of he did something criminal. I guess he had to sign some kind of "keep silence, do not talk about you job" paper

On the other hand, he did something-what many see as an act of patriotism to his country

Markus

How do you figure that?
It only aims at what he wrote, thats why it says "everything he wrote".

But it is relevant, the core of the arguement is that one set of things happened.
Anything which tries to hide those set of events behind irrelevant issues must be dealt with to remove the attempt at obfusctating

It probably does stir but not for everybody the goverment or services responsible for security for that matter are public enemy number one.
It also has nothing to do with left or right.
Actually maybe it does for some ....as it seems.

Okay, you're turning this into yet another game. Argue the points, stop the insults, stop the game playing.

I guess it boils down to whether the American people have the right to know that their own government is not only monitoring their communication patterns but also has the ability to sift that data they collect in any manner they so choose.

The government claims to be searching for terrorist groups but ANY group of people can be targeted for any reason. What's to stop it being used to target political enemies for example? Where is the oversight for such a powerful monitoring tool if we are not even supposed to know of the tools existence?

Giving a link helps:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22842837

Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but unfortunately, I can't. The United States government over the course of years has gotten entirely too big for it's britches and forgets that it exists by, for, and is employed by, We the people.

The key problem is ever since 911 and the policies inacted as a result, the Civil Liberties of the Citizens of the United States, have been steadily eroding. This needs to stop, before it can no longer be said that America is the "Land of the Free." I don't think he betrayed his country, i think he stuck to the core of an oath that politiicans and military alike take. To Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; Unfortunately our politicans forget this all to easily.

I have to agree bubbleheads comments about the government.

I'll just leave these video links here:

I Spy With My Little Eye: NSA Part 1

NSA Surveillance: Don't Care. I've Got Nothing to Hide.

As overused as that quote is, the overuse doesn't make it any less true, nor any less applicable.

A criminal committing a crime, is criminal.

Somebody revealing the crime, is not.

Snowden nevertheless miscalculated his choice for Hongkong maybe, although he hopes to finally end up in Iceland. His revelations not only reveal how far the surveillance state already is reality in the US (and the US monitoring all the globe), but they could also be painful for other states who are accomplice sin crime or running excessive surveillance themselves. If china is one such candidate, they might not want to to give him political asyl, but want to hand him over and have the US lock him and throwing away the key.

I wish Snowden well. Hopefully he made his homework on the Chinese.

For careless ordinary citizens this hopefully is a wakeup call to realise to what degree the total surveillance state already is reality. And since not only priovate people get overheared, but the ifnrasturcture gets used on everybody, we inevitably also talk about economic and industrial espionage as well. Knowing what the manmagers of a foreign company talk on the oh so well protected phone before meeting Americans in a business negotiation, can be worth millions and millions of dollars for the american side. It's like playing poker with marked cards.

And lets have no illusions. Not only will those data never be deleted, but they also will be used and abuse outside ans counter terrorism context. Just a question of time. The state never executes self-restraint, the state always wants more and more and more control and its citizens being naked, made of glass, pinned under the states microscope from the cradle to the grave.

The dream of the totalitarian dictatorships of the past century, and the secret polices of theirs, finally has come true. Of course we must allow getting told again and again that it all is just for our best. Yeah, sure. And the data is safe with almighty father state. Yeah sure. And there is laws and regulations. Yeah sure. And anti terror is the only motivation and there will be checks and balances against abuse. Yes, if I get some brain surgery done on myself, then I will believe all that, yes I will.

The Gestapo in the Third Reich acted on the basis of laws, too. So did the Stasi in the DDR that spied on its own people, and the KGB in the USSR. And yes, the White Rose indeed was illegal, from laws' point of view. Good that they caught them!

Our forefathers have been told the same bull last century, too. Now its our turn to swallow all that.

Morality and legality are two totally different things. And the modern states' morals can no longer be trusted.

Snowden acted on basis of his conscience, and by a moral argument that I find no reasonable way to argue with. He pays a high price and does not give me the impression to have done it for fame or to boast with it. I wish him well and that this under the circumstances he now is in will come to the best possible end for him. But I fear the opposite will become true. Many Americans will call fore revenge and retaliation.

This is a confused state of mind, because the rage should be directed against the state and against the shadow it casts over the people in the US, and outside the US.

A simpe question:
WHO MONITORS THE MONITORS, if the people do not even know they get monitored? And is a society where checks and balances fail, really free and "democratic"?

The answer to the latter can only be "No".

-

And now back to my letter to Oberon. :)

I wonder if Neal is going to have enough bandwidth by the time you're finished Sky. :03:

In other news, Snowden has 'gone missing'. He's believed to still be in Hong Kong but his whereabouts are unknown. He checked out of his hotel on Monday and hasn't been seen since. Four possibilities in my mind:

1) The CIA have got him. In which case he'll probably reappear in America within the week and face charges.

2) The MSS have got him. In which case he'll probably reappear in Beijing within the week and apply for political asylum

3) He's just moved position since he's gone public in order to try and shake some of the heat that's on him.

4) His body will be found later in the week.

Number four is unlikely but possible.

He's made too much noise to die of sudden death syndrome

A fair trial would answer a lot of unanswered questions

CNN has a poll showing 53% he's done nothing wrong
and 47% thinking he has.

"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." George Orwell


In other words you believe in freedom yet you also have no problem with the fact that government agencies have a blank check to deem anyone and anything that they want a treat.

See the problem? You surrender your freedom and allow the goverment to hunt down "terrorists" which happens to be anyone they so deem as "terrorists" .Yet you believe in freedom.

Its not that simple like mr Obama deciding out of the blue that mr stealhead is terrorist.

Good one! :haha:

True but they didn't have to declare conservative organizations to be terrorists in order to sic the IRS on them either. There are a lot more things the Government can do to screw it's enemies besides dropping a bomb on them.

The thing is they are secretly collecting enormous amounts of personal information, ostensibly to combat terrorists, but how can we know what this information is actually used for if the very existence of the program is kept from us?

Where is the oversight that so vital in preventing the abuse commonly found in government operations that we do know of?

They said that about David Kelly...

Still, I think you're probably right, and it's likely he's just moving around to prevent both the press and security agencies from catching up with him. That's the price you pay when you kick a hornets nest.

Well, first this kind of state of war, regulations and censorship must be the wet dream of the right wing, don't you think so ? How unfortunate that just of all a demcrat fell for the exercise of influence, by the war hawks of the military complex. And don't tell me the latter are politically 'left', in any regard.

Yes, i must have completely misunderstood ..
Everyone being against eavesdropping, against killing terrorists and unfortunate bystanders without trial and by drones, does not like Guantanamo and what is done there, or has something against how the military acted against civilians, was considered as being left wing scum and 'unpatriotic'.

And now tell me how much left intellectuals do you think sit and work in the arms industry ? Or the NSA ? Or the CIA ?
:hmm2:



On topic:
Maybe this is the solution .. but then the real list of what is listened to might not be made public anymore :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxCTYYNYlOk

Not that the english GCHQ or other dépendances in Israel, Germany or wherever would not do that. They all do, because they can.