SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

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- - Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170397)

Would like a link too. Tho, I'm pretty sure a sort of an paintball gun with special ammo is used in law enforcement all around the world. :hmmm:

The thing is that no matter what Israel does it is always portrayed by media as a big bully that bombs poor Palestinian civilians with F-16s
When we tired to pick the terrorist that are responsible for planing suicidal attacks we got condemned by media that we kill freedom fighters.
When we took on Gaza to clean it of hammas after 2 years of every day rocket bombing we where made bad guys that kill women and children- by Turks since they have to keep happy the Muslim public.
No matter what we do -we are the strong that is killing the poor weak Palestinians which is exactly what hammas and other extremists want you to think.
They use the human rights laws to their benefit now while they have no regards for such laws.

As for the paintball guns it is true-but you dont have to beleve me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring (Post 1407853)

How about a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Look at 52 seconds, it's clearly a paintball gun.

A few seconds later you can see they all are armed the same way.

They were attacked from the moment they landed, too, and returned fire with paintball guns, apparently until one was stabbed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring (Post 1407853)

How about a link?

here you go.

Quote:

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.
"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said. The IDF said it had confiscated two pistols from the boat.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ch-us-1.293089

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly (Post 1407863)

Would like a link too. Tho, I'm pretty sure a sort of an paintball gun with special ammo is used in law enforcement all around the world. :hmmm:

Well it was in Wikipedia so it might be true. Would make sense for them to use non-lethal stuff like pepper shots (?) or something to stun etc. But ~19 dead? It's still a massacre.

Thanks Tater & BR. :up:

@OTH

Like I said earlier, we don't know what happened onboard, we can only guess. But clearly, looking at the vid Tater posted, things got out of hand badly.

here is another report, from the Jpost:

Quote:

"They came for war,” was how one Israeli Navy commando described the activists aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger boat where clashes erupted early Monday morning and ended with at least nine activists dead and dozens others, including eight IDF soldiers, injured.

“Operation Sea Breeze”, as it was called by the IDF, actually began several hours earlier at about 11 pm Sunday night as the Navy made its initial contact with the Mavi Marmara and the other five ships which were part of an international aid flotilla on its way to try and break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on Gaza.

After several hours of radio communications and warnings that the Mavi Marmara would be boarded if the captain did not change his ship’s course, at 4 am Monday, OC Navy Vice-Admiral Eliezer “Cheney” Marom, who had set up a command post on the INS Victory, gave the order to Flotilla 13 to board the ship.

The three Israeli Air Force Blackhawk Helicopters hovering nearby made their approach above the Mavi Marmara’s upper deck. Sitting on board, the naval commandos could just make out the few dozen activists gathered below. Carrying non-lethal weapons as well as pistols, the last thing the soldiers thought they would walk into was a well-planed lynch.

“As the 15 of us slid down the ropes, 30 of them were waiting for us on the deck,” one of the commandos later told reporters. “They charged us and threw a few of the soldiers off the deck to the floor below. We did not expect to find ourselves in such a situation.”

The assessment within the Navy was that the activists would resist the Israeli takeover of their ship but along the lines of the demonstrations the IDF faces weekly in the West Bank where Palestinians protest against the security barrier. Rocks and punches would be thrown as well as an occasional knife but not the extent of violence they met.

As the rope fell from the helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara’s deck, some of the Turkish activists grabbed it, tied it to an antenna likely hoping that it would bring down the helicopter. The Navy commandos decided to still go ahead with the operation and began sliding down onto the ship.

Armed with rifles that could shoot paintballs – which can hurt but not kill – the soldiers landed on the ship and immediately came under attack by dozens of activists armed with knives, bats and metal pipes. Activists grabbed soldiers and tried to hold them hostage, stripping them of their helmets and equipment.

One of the soldiers tried to protect a commando who was being lynched by a group of activists. They were instructed by the flotilla commander to refrain from using their sidearm unless their lives were at risk.

Soldiers feared for their lives, asked permission to open fire

The force threw several stun grenades but the violent attacks continued. Two soldiers were injured and some of the activists succeeded in stealing one of the soldier’s guns. Shots were fired and one of the soldiers fell to the ground unconscious. Fearing for their lives, the soldiers asked and received permission to open fire, first taking aim at the activists’ feet.

In one corner of the ship, the commandos saw a gun flash. They returned fire and started chasing the shooter but could not find him.

As the clashes intensified, additional commandos boarded the ship as well as members of the Border Police’s Yasam unit who are experts in riot control and crowd dispersion. After less than an hour, the ship was in Israeli hands. The price though was steep – eight soldiers were injured, several of them seriously and at least nine activists were killed.

By the evening, the naval commandos were back at their base in northern Israel and had begun their debriefing.

The videos taken by the IDF were passed around throughout the defense establishment and made their way to other special forces, including the Israel Police’s elite counter-terror unit Yamam, which had fought to participate in the mission but had been left on the sidelines due to legal complications involving police operations out at sea.

“The soldiers acted with the utmost nobility,” said one police source close to the Yamam. “They engaged in hand-to-hand combat, sustained injuries, but only opened fire after one of them was lying on the ground unconscious and two others had been shot. This was an unbelievable demonstration of restraint.”

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177040

I'm sure more info will come out over the next few days, but it sounds more like a botched raid than anything else.

This is part of a longer opinion piece, but it carries interesting facts which show the thinking of Israel and why it decided to stop the flotilla.

Quote:

First, it made the claim that the Gaza Strip was not suffering from a humanitarian crisis and that the thousands of tons in supplies that the ships were carrying were not really needed, since it was all already supplied to the Palestinians by Israel. The IDF went so far as to invite media down to the Kerem Shalom crossing to videotape the hundreds of trucks that transfer supplies daily from Israel to Gaza. At the same time, Israel offered to transfer the shipments on the boats to the Gaza Strip after they were unloaded at the Ashdod Port and inspected.

Next, it tackled the delegitimization effort. Stories were leaked by the government to the press about the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), the Turkish organization that is behind the flotilla, described as a “radical Islamic organization” that was outlawed by Israel in 2008 for allegedly serving as a major component in Hamas’s global fund-raising machine.

In addition to this effort, the long-standing claim was restated that if this flotilla were allowed to enter Gaza, it would open the door to unsupervised shipments that could contain not just flour, cement and medical supplies but also explosives, Kalashnikov rifles and Iranian-made, long-range Fajr-5 missiles.

(...)

Israel had other options. One was to stop the ships far out at sea, inspect them, maybe even arrest a terror suspect or two if there were such aboard, and then let the ships sail freely into Gaza.

Another option was to simply let the ships through unchecked. In the absence of intelligence indicating that the ships were carrying arms, the risk might not have been that great. Yes, it could have paved the way for additional flotillas, but all of these could be inspected by the navy, which would be tasked with ruling out the possibility that arms were being smuggled in by sea.

Let’s not fool ourselves. Even if Israel allowed these ships and all such ships to dock in Gaza City’s harbor, it would still be accused of laying siege to the Palestinians in the Strip since, albeit along with Egypt, it controls the land crossings.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176936

Simple solution. Give the Island of Crete to the Palestinians. Some scientists believe that Minoan refugees were the original Palestinians.

Crete is a hell of a lot nicer than that desert they are fighting over.

Examine what we know of this "incident" and take the "moralistic" and political leanings out of it - and here is what you have at the end of the day.

Israel determines that a region in dispute must be blockaded, and announces the blockade to the world.

Another country decides that they wish to tacitly and unofficially support those in the region in question. They send ships in convoy carrying prohibited materials with the stated intent to have those vessels violate the blockade.

Israel takes reasonable action (without violence) to have the convoy change course and avoid a confrontation.

Convoy refuses, making a choice to knowingly advance into a situation they are warned will create a response.

Israel chooses to enforce its blockade via deployment of trained combatants using non-lethal weapons.

Passengers/crew of the convoy choose to escalate the matter by using lethal force, to which Israel to responds in kind. The video makes it clear that the actions of the people on the ship chose to escalate the matter.

Now people whine because "innocent" people have been hurt. Thats like saying a guy knows its my house, he chooses to break in, I catch him trying to jimmy the door, warn him to bugger off, he comes at me with a knife and I shoot him dead - he was innocent and I am somehow wrong. Sorry - doesn't fly.

As for the legality of the boarding - there is no question - it was legal. The captain of the ship that was boarded made it clear it was his intent to violate the blockade order. His refusal to divert - knowing that the UN Security Council has not deemed the blockade illegal (and thus it IS legal at the moment) -the Encyclopedia Britannica as: "an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

Now - since Gaza is controlled by Hamas, an entity that has in its charter a calling for the destruction of Israel, it becomes obvious that the blockade is in fact a facet of the ongoing "war" - or conflict between Israel and Hamas. Thus, the captain of the vessel, by refusing to divert, intentionally notified Israel his intent to aid and succor an enemy of their nation. They had every legal right to just fire a Gabriel or 3 at each ship and watch the burn and sink.

The big question I have seen posted here was "wasn't it illegal to do this in international waters?" No - while it would have been illegal to do it in any other nation's national waters, on the high seas your actions and intent no longer fall under the protections of the flag you fly or the ship is registered under. Doubt it? Look at history. US merchants and at least one warship were sunk prior to the US entry into WW2 - purely because they were acting in support of the German enemy (Britain). Yet such actions, while denounced - were not considered acts of war since in essence the US was a "silent" partner already at war by its actions.

Legally speaking, the turkish flagged ships were in violation of international maritime law by their notification of intent to bypass a legal blockade. Thus, they made themselves legitimate targets in international waters. Unfortunate incident, but the morons involved decided to they wanted to prove a point, and in so doing chose to intentionally provoke and then attack armed forces, and now want to cry about it....

Well...... all I can say to that is......

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH.

Now get over it - ya did it to yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSatyr (Post 1407962)

Simple solution. Give the Island of Crete to the Palestinians. Some scientists believe that Minoan refugees were the original Palestinians.

Hey...!!! :stare: Although German politicians have made the proposal that the Greeks should sell their islands to make some money in their debt crisis, nobody ever said they should give them away for free...!!! :arrgh!:

When you know there is a blockade,
and you try to run it knowing you'll get boarded.
If you were totally innocent?
Why would you fight it in any way?
You'd win if you were innocent!
This only shows the true mentality of those on board.
They set out to cause this situation!
Hopeing the media would do as it has done.
The Media is only a Tool now days.
But they do not realize how much of a Tool they are.
Being a blockade?
I'd have sunk every ship in the convoy!
What part did they not understand about blockade?

Good job Israel. :nope:

And yet again, no matter what the Israeli government does, it's practically applauded for it.

I applaud them for restraint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusJS (Post 1407984)

Good job Israel. :nope:

And yet again, no matter what the Israeli government does, it's practically applauded for it.

You did see the video tater posted, right? The one where the people onboard the ships grab the descending IDF soldiers and start beating them with metal rods? If they were innocent they prolly wouldn't have done that, now would they?

And like stated and again, by watching the video comes clear, they (IDF) were armed with non-lethal weapons, only after they are starting to get beat they draw out their secondary weapons (pistols) and start shooting.