I wasnt refering to you when I said nitpicking but ALL in general :up:
We will get stuck on the small matters without moving forward

Some points people will never agree on however we ALL need to agree the theatre v theatre\flaming and baiting has to stop

The ATO will be appearing in the mods forum on a more regular basis than has done till now and the situation will only get worse unless something is done

A seperate forum may go a long way to helping but members need to make the change too

This is the exact reason we have come to this juncture Penelope. We want peace for all in both theaters. Having a member such as yourself frighten by what you might find with your next visit is not what the forums are about. So, we are looking to remedy the situation. All nonsense aside, I really do believe a forum for each theater concerning modding SH4 is needed and at hand. As far as a moderator, that is up to Neal.

What I do and my other dealings are not on trial here. I'm sure I have been discussed at the 'lair' more than once. Going down this 'route' you're hoping you do not have to looks to be more destructive then constructive. This is why a dismissive response. Perhaps listening to Penelope and her concerns/ideas and developing them for a common ground might be the best route at this time.

That's the second time you've referred to Penelope in your response to me.

FYI, what makes you think Penelope is stating anyone other than her own opinion or that Penelope is representative of the feelings of those from GWX who have already responded on this thread ? :hmm:

A few reflections, I dont think which theatre of war your modding
plays into any of the contentiousness.

the issue at least for me and hopefully a few others goes further
than the subject of SHIII V SHIV Mod forums.

to me the issue is behaviour in the SS community at large.
I agree with the principles expressed by JC that dialogue and
listening are the correct path. I also agree that a more rigid
enforecement is called for by the admins.

I disagree with PG that there are no shIII instigators, they have
offended me, I would point out that while here on the shiv forums
barring a misunderstood statement in the first two days of my presence
here I have never had a problem on the shiv mods like I often did
on the shIII forum.

the issue is really simply manners and adherence to polite protocols.

Manners are the Oil in the Gears of society
they reduce the friction created when humans interact
that is the actual purpose of manners, you dont need to like anyone
you just need be polite. People that slander or criticize a proposal
of manners of conduct simply throw sand into the machine of society,
in this case SS, and that is a counter productive buisness in any intrepretation. Like PG I hesitate every time I boot up subsim lately
and brace myself to find it in complete ruin. I dont brace myself because
of anything Ive experienced on the shiv forums.

M

As author of S3D I have a different view on the modding community as pretty much 99% of you. In reality I don't mod at all, I've made one small PPF-mod (hardly special), and recently provided a solution to the propeller spin problem, as RR already stated. Other than that, I limit my time to work on S3D and help out other members when they have questions regarding the game files.

As a result, I don't often sit in the same seat as the 'modder' that has come up with a new mod, new feature, new idea, or for simply finding a fix to a long standing nuisance. It was very disappointing to hear that a solution was already known, while a fix was asked for many times (note: by others, never by me) in the past. Ironically, the guys that told me this also posted in another older thread where others and me were also discussing the problem. Note: no solution was brought forward! And as a result, no fix back then. No, I have to come up with a fix a couple of months later to hear it has been done before. Nice going! :nope:

To me, this is one of the root causes of the sometimes reoccuring drama show (we know, you don't) and I saw that coming very soon after a couple of replies. Nevertheless, I am happy I posted this information. I don't own this solution, the community does. No questions asked.

This has in fact happened before, and not just to me. I learned the hard way over the past year that many knowledge about the game IS available, but hardly anything was available in public. As a result I wasted countless hours in the first 6 months (and probably still do) to discover the game files by myself, only to learn afterwards people already knew about alot of stuff. Mind you, S3D has taken hundreds of hours, all by myself... I do this for ALL of the modding community (and not just around here). Let this thought sink for a while.

This is something I've said before, and I'll say it again, do withit whatever you want:

Senior modders in my book have an 'obligation' (for the lack of a better word, pardon me if it sounds to hard) to keep the community alive and most of all healthy. You could have saved me alot of trouble one year ago and others that start modding now. We all thank you for your past mods/work, but for everyone to enjoy modding, help people around. You may already do so, have done so, and continue to do so, which is great. But I often see seniors help others out in private (which isn't bad per se, as long as the knowledge finds the public one way or the other) or by doing the work for them, or the other way around by saying it's old news, or not say anything at all.

Wrong.

What this 'entire' community (both SH3/4) seriously lacks (even today) as opposed to other communities I've been part of is the 'desire' to share info. Yes, desire. People should be wanting to share that cool new find, through tutorials, walkthroughs, etc. You found a new trick? Cool, use it in your mod, and during or afterwards for all I care (if you are concerned about the 'praise') post a tutorial on how you achieved it. You get credit in two ways... And you've helped the common good.
Remember, you publish your mods for users, but you share your knowledge with co-modders. They are a different group. People forget about this way to often... Users enjoy your work, modders only want to know how you have done it. Whether you should do all this is your own choice, but in any case, I will and already do, as do many others, but it can be alot better if more do. Sure, it takes time to write something up, but don't forget it may have taken you dozens of hours to figure out, possibly even using free tools and/or already available knowledge. Why must others do this too? This is counterproductive.

Regarding 'unfinished' tools... S3D has been unfinished for over a year now, and was released as a v0.1 alpha which could basically only open the files and not much more. Uptil now, I have hardly had any user issues to resolve, so this is a non-issue to me. If you think you have a useful tool, but don't want or don't have time to improve it, why not just release it unfinished anyway (with or without source). Others may pick it up and improve it. That's what a community does...

The last couple of paragraphs are in the spirit of an opensource and collaborative community, and I happily do my part in it. If it wasn't like this or if this was to change, I'll be gone faster than you can say 'S3D'. My interests is to enjoy the game and it's technology, and a cooperative MOD-community, not to waste time on a community that fights and keeps everything to themselfs. That's why I am still here. We are still going in the right direction... :up:

I concluse this lengthy post with the following fact:

S3D helped more people to understand the game (including new modders, senior modders, GWX members, SH3 members, SH4 members), and allowed more people to join the modding world, be more creative with the game, and produced dozens if not hundreds small and big mods on either side of the pond, and it will continue to do so, no matter what preference of theater.

Speaking of which, stay tuned for the best S3D-update to date coming to you REAL soon... And damn it, because of this long post, it delayed the release! That's all I wanted to add... :smug:

Jimbuna,

I did not state anywhere in the thread that Penelope was the forward leading authority to voice her opinion that encompasses everyones thoughts in the GWX camp. I stated Penelope and bigboywooly are providing some answers to a change here for the better concerning both theaters. Feel free to find a where I have done so and I will stand corrected. Thus far, these two have stepped forward, agreed that SH4 uboats should have their own forum, not only for the modders that have the interest soley in the uboats but for all members that are intriged by the uboats. It is just simple and organized. Each fan has their corner to create and learn. Once done, a new moderator to handle that forum. We ask that if the fence is jumped, it is to investigate, help and bolster the other theater when help is needed, a idea is new, exchange of information. This goes for both forums.

I wonder if a 'chat room' might be a good idea when 'difficult issues' arise. :hmm:

What if a Moderator could set up a chat room, and invite designated guests for a specific day and time, so that those directly involved in an issue could discuss them honestly and frankly in a private environment?

Authority to enter the room would be controlled Neal, or a Moderator or Moderators designated by him.

The idea here is not to alienate the majority of the members, but to allow a communication channel not currently available in order to help resove a tricky issue.

Please do not interpret this as an attack, but merely an honest attempt to discuss a fact;

We have a claim from a GWX member "I've never seen oneupmanship attempt",

Then we have you leaving out the real first post that caused the problem. You conveniently left out jimbuna, who was the first to jump in quickly rub anvarts post in skwasjer's face with a "GWX did it first post'...seen here..

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...3&postcount=23


Now, since it was clear Anvart's post was going to be an antagonist, what purpose did it serve for jimbuna to jump in and push it and promote a GWX oneupmanship in skwasjer's thread?

None, other than to demonstrate the very problem we're all here talking about.

And as for Ducimus and Lehmann, let's compare their words in that thread...




Now honestly, which of those quotes is a bit more palatable, and which one of those quotes is childish trash that should be moderated.


This fight has never been about SH3 vs SH4. This has been about one group breaking every single forum ettiquette rule we could write, and being allowed to get away with it.

And, it's not going to change, because no one here at the top is willing to admit the truth. Friends turn a blind eye to other friends behaviors. One hand washes the other, etc etc.

And watch...watch how this post is reacted to. That will also demonstrate the problem here.

A very nice bait MONOLITH, Your post is not helping the situation. You even realise it with that final line! Yet hit the post button anyway. Also your quotes are very very selective too. Totally ignoring circumstances prior that led to said quotes.

Also, you make us to be the villain... you are not snow white either... Here is the prime example of what I have been talking about all along and your post proves it, just as you're ready to walk away somebody comes along turns you round and wallops you again. You are here placing all blame squarely on GWX's doorstep... its not happening sir... Its not fair, or justified.

You don't like the GWX team... we get it. That's fine... can't say it bothers me much at this moment because you have tried to stir up trouble in our ranks... you failed miserably but you still tried.

This "one group" don't need to be mystic to know who you mean. GWX... You see what you want to see. You don't like GWX so you stand against us and attempt to discredit the team... it is NOT all our fault, and I refuse point blank to be broadly accused of that by you given your past history against GWX.

Not sure if a chat room is needed, but it is an idea. But your point with regards to alienating members is a good one, they are the silent majority, I am curious how the casual member views this current discussion or for that matter, the reasons why this thread was created in the first place. These are the folks that keep this place going in the end.

Much talk about modding and such, but mods are not much good ( no disrespect intended ) if you don't have folks that use them and provide feedback, good and the not so good. Point being in the end we are all members here, yes some folks mod, some Moderate, others come to get a question answered and there are various reasons why other folks come here, but in the end we are all part of this place called SUBSIM, and it is one hell of a place.

Some more of my .02 .....


RDP

Actually, it wasn't GWX I was talking about with my last sentence.

Sorry Penelope, but not everything is about you and GWX.



As for the rest of your post, look again, I have simply pulled actual posts from a thread, to stand for themselves. I haven't 'set anything up' or mislead anything. As for missing posts that 'led up to'...the thread is there for all to see, the only post before jimbuna's is anvarts GWX rub.

So, exactly how do you defend jimbuna jumping in to start the 'oneupmanship'?

Instead of attacking me with the typical line of 'you have a history with GWX, you don't like us, it's sooo unfair', how about we actually look at the fact and try to figure it out?

You avoid it, because there really is no defense for that post. And it does demonstrate a frequent style of uneupmanship that occurs here. And who's being mystic...lol.. I quoted GWX posts.

My post was not an attack on you, or GWX. I'm simply saying lets' look at the posts.... but instead of doing that, you just attack. Maybe my last line should apply to you after all.

There's no baiting or flaming in my post..only an eagerness to actually review the facts. You either do, or you don't. If you don't, then why not? Isn't that what we're trying to do in this thread?

So, the question would still be....

Calm down :smug:

Ok, fine, but again, picking posts here and there doesn't make things any better, everybody could pick posts of X or Y and say "see, I told you". It's like running in circle, nobody's going anywhere with that. So, what's next ?
edit, what are you doing there anyway Skwas', where that new release already ?! :rotfl:

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/\ Like He said :nope: (Skwasjer that is)