This is a very interesting discussion you have and it's with interest I follow it.

Some of you say he's a spy and guilty according to the law

Some of you call him a patriot and a hero

But Skybird is the person who's the one that has said the most interesting and it's true

His(Snowden) action has been in vain! Sad to say

Do you really thing, that they(NSA, CIA a.s.o) are going to stop now that they have been revealed?

Markus

certainly as an enemy to their power.
or the beginning of a possibly potential group of people removing said power.

you folks really need to wake up...

Not until some physical actiion has been taken.

The Spies are not only controlling the NSA and similar agencies.
they also control the
-Police Top levels (we will confront you in the streets)
-Armed Forces top levels (we will bolster the Police by sending the national guard) (we will hunt you down worldwide by air, sea, land, anytime, anyplace)
-Government levels top to very bottom (we will stricten rules and give less handouts)
-Economic top levels (we will stricten working rules, prices, ship jobs overseas, where we find brainwashed slaves)


Who is still NOT under the control of the Governemnt?

Average Joe.
As has been said, that average, working class Joe...
HE is the one to take action.
And no, voting... or even Voting with your wallet is not enough.

American Spring! Syria! Turkey! Greece! Italy! they are your examples to follow.
okay maybe not Italy... they plan on bringing back that teenage f......nanana Berlusconi.

And... AND the Guillautine. with CNN and Fox and whoever... holding the camera right on it.
So yes... France shall be your example too. as much as some of yall might hate to hear that.

What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

Germany is under Constant attack bei foreign Intel services . It is about economic espionage . The Chinese launch the most attacks and infiltrations . But second, before the Russians, are the Americans.

You Brits read a lot into this illusion of yours, Special relations with the Us and all that, but you are just getting used, for the Us it is opportunistic to leave you in that state of illusionS . But in the end, You are just the American beachhead inside the EU, that is why they want you to stay in it.This, and a performing agent in NATO. Master rules . Poodle follows.

l repeat, between states, there exists neither friendship nor morals .

here, take this tar.
take thease feathers. and over there is a shed full of metal bars.

When I read it, my first thought was this:

Start an organization get lots of members make it political, when enough support start running for presidency, when elected do the change that I want to change.

I'm raised with the believe in democracy and there power of it.

Markus

the system told you it works.
you see it does not work
you try to rebuild said system using what the defective system taught you in the first place.

not innovative, not direct enough.


edit...
and the question was:
what action "OTHER THAN VOTING"
to run fgor prez... you still need some sort of voting system, hance this is outside of the acceptes possible answers.

And there you are at the root of the problem. You got raised with a belief. Well nothing hinders you to grow beyond that! To believe into electing somebody in the next votings, not only get us all stuck, but drive us deeper and deeper into the mess. Doesn't matter whom one votes for. And to call for changes just inside and by the voting mechanism guarantees only "Kadavergehorsam" meant to not put the situation and trend -deeper into the mess, that is - into question.

We democratically elect us all into bancruptcy, ruin and ultimately: slavery in a system that by then will be anything but free and democratic, but unfree, and totalitarian. The opposite of democracy is freedom.

That's the ONLY way you can make the changes without making some kind of revolution. The democracy way.

If you ain't pleased with your politics, then you have several options

Markus

I can only speak for myself, but the system seems to be working pretty well. Not perfect, but perfection is a fantasy. We have our ebbs and flows and we often don't correct problems until they become huge.

But on the whole, I kinda like the US system. It has been good to me and my family for a long time. Do I have my complaints and dissatisfaction? Sure do. Many of them. But I still think it is a good, but imperfect system, run by good, but imperfect people trying to do a good, but imperfect job in a lousy but imperfect world. :)

I hope that in my small way, I am making my country a tiny bit more better and a tiny bit less worse than it is.

I think the US would be a vastly different country if our system "did not work" at all. :yep:

...because Democracy means voting for someone else to make decisions and changes for you.

A)
NEVER wisely. ALWAYS with the one you gave power to, wanting more money and power. Got that finally?

B)
...he who gives away his power to get freedom deserves neither power nor freedom. - me.


Is there anybody in here willing and or able to think outside indoctinated propaganda and democracy being the most humane forms of governance?
anyone...? besides sky and a rare handsful?

I see what you mean, and i agree. Your Horizon is "this big", and whithin your radius of action, you try, and achieve, doing good things.
The system is good for you.

The question i would like you to ask is not if the system is good for you... but if is is good for the world.

Your neighbors are getting pissed by your system wiretapping them, that is what i want you to understand at this point.

so what are you doing to stop your agencies having access, and also sifting through our mails, our network traffic, our companies data transfers and cloud storages our VOIP communications?

Waht are you doing to stop them doing this to YOU and YOUR family?

This is not imprefection.
This is a global offense - if you understand the magnitude of the events.

If voting could change anything, it would be illegal. Kurt Tucholsky

Our apparent democracy is kept up to make the people believe, they participate - or even rule - the decisions made by politicans.
Politicians can be replaced anytime without disturbing the system of rule. They are puppets on the strings of their stringholders. Holders of shares, of large bank accounts, holders of key economies, holders of large property, holders of influence on the puppets, of control over their points of view, their perception and their thinking.

The plantation owner told his slaves they are free now and they can elect some of their kind, some foremen to decide over the general conditions at the plantation.
Well, the foremen still get their orders at the dinners with the plantation owner. For their cooperation they will be supported for a re-election with money and controlled media.
If they don't behave well, the controlled media will burn them alive - in full public.
The plantation owner creates and collects information on the foremen, to be used by his media if necessary. And he collects information on his slaves, to rule them accordingly.
Guess what happens, if the plantation owner stands alone against 110 slaves following a common intersest. A whip to keep them under control is not enough.
Smart is it, to let them vote 10 of their own, easy to be kept under control of the plantation owner. He gives these 10 a little whip and let them do the job.
If one of them starts to revolt, he will be replaced. He will be discredited by the media - constantly named to be free and independant, but in reality under control of the plantation owner.
A motivated new little whip swinger is only one day away.

Voting is not for changing anything. Voting means you are asked to support the system. That's the only purpose - at least today.
It may have been diffenrent with smaller democracies, with personal responsability, direct contact between representative and voter and with the fear of consequences in the case of abuse of power.

Our politicians try to stay away from the people. They have a ban mile installed. They stay in contact with the lobbyists and learn their point of view.
To discuss about politicians is pointless, because they are not the ones who decide the important decisions. They follow orders.
Who pays for the music decides the songs to play.


And the free slaves support this system, because there is a repititive media voice whispering constantly for decades: this is the best of all systems! You are free! The others want to destroy your system! Fight them! Our plantation is the good one! You are special! Don't listen to other voices! They lie! They want to ensnare you! They think you are stupid! But you are special! You are free! Support the system! You are the good one! Look at the turd in the flowers of the other systems! They are bad! We are the good ones! You are special! You are free! You have a choice! Your system is special! Your voice is special! Fight the other voices! They want to enslave you! But you are free! You are special! This is the best of all systems. You are the good one! Support the system! Vote for the system! You are free to vote any foreman! You are free! This is the best system! Ask your fathers! You are special! Support the system! Support the troops! They fight for you! You are the system! The system is the best! Fight for it! Tell it to your kids! You are free!


Some say they prosper under this system. True! But only because thousands suffer.

I'll just mention this here:
"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."
http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...5813812740.png

For what it's worth, I think were still at the ballot and Jury boxes. Though the idea that it may come down to the ammo box at some point in the future no longer strikes me as impossible or inconceivable. Improbable perhaps, but not impossible.

Most of the time yeah it works, and yeah perfection is a fantasy. However, if you examine the larger picture, and look at the cumulative sum of all the events from the last eight months; the conclusion the government has gotten way out of hand is inescapable. Remember, we the people own this government. Not the other way around. They are supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We are citizens, not subjects, they are supposed to answer to us. From what i can tell, they don't really seem to think so, and that is a problem.

Reality does not catch up with expectation there.

None within the rules of the system, with the system being the problem. That's why you are demanded to vote - to make sure the snowballing show goes on. The show is what counts. The name of this year's winner is not really of any interest at all. He will not change the game. If he would, he never would have climbed the nomination and power hierarchy of the game system.

Nobody is innocent, all are guilty, the leading and those being led alike. The first make promises to come to power and then rape the nation's economic fundament, the others demand those promises and mentally move the bill they nevertheless need to pay into a far away distant future, outside the span of their lives. But they all are important in being voters. In the end all parties use stolen tax money not to feed the poor, but to make more people poor and keep them in dependence from the parties - so that they vote for them to get financial gifts that earlier got and in the future will get stolen from them again.

From nothing comes nothing, wealth you want to spend must be produced before, there ios no way to spend your way out of debts, and never ever has both nature's and economy's realities agreed to compromise themselves on behalf of political belief, wishful thinking and ideological propaganda. Especially Europeans, but Americans as well have forgotten this, and will need to relearn that. the lesson will be harsh and merciless, nevertheless it will taught itself the one way or the other way. There is no escape from reality, no matter what well-meaning intention is used as an excuse for the attempt.

I think you may have misunderstood me on several cases.

I'm NOT saying that you should vote on some other person.
I'm saying that YOU self should create your own party and run for presidency or to become prime minister or what's it called in Germany.

General:

Have just seen TV2NEWS(a danish news channel) and there I heard about this surveillance in EU.

I wonder how the relation between EU and USA will be if it is true

I guess it will be a very hot summer then.

Markus

Here's another thing that I have read in this thread

I have nothing to hide, so I'm not afraid of this surveillance

That made me remember a friend saying the same thing to me

This is what I said to him

Very well, then you would not have any thing, against what I'm going to do next week in your flat.

What are you going to do? he said

I'm going to do the following things

1. Install camera in every room and in some of them more than 1.
2. Install microphones in every room and in some them more than 1.
3. Install microphones in your home phone and in every cell phone you have.
4. Install a ghost program in every computer you have
5. Install a program in every TV, radio and recorder you may have.

When I have said these things, he looked at me as I was crazy.

Said to him. You said that you have nothing to hide, so.....

Markus

and next time you are discussing the subject of corn flakes at breakfast time, you decide to suggest another brand.
... a brand you happen to own, a fact he does not know.

and when you know what Lasagne he eats, you will , in a subtle way steer a discussion onto the horse meat scandal...
and suggest he try this new vegan lasagne your Wife served you last week and everyone liked.
...whose production process you supervise, a fact he does not know.

...car
...music
...book
...school
...party
...science/education
...religion/spirituality


because you are the NSA, the police, the army, the news, the big dollar business and a dozen other entities.

nice suggestion!