*Cough* what?

it is also not as cozy as yo may think i think it is far from cozy knowing that some people will also never post in sub sim but only download their mods and only post when they have an issue. or when they are working on a mod and are being pestered when can "we" expect a release date or any updates for "us".
some of our excellent modders have severe OCD when it comes to the historical accuracy of some of their mods which seems to be a thankless trait for many.

Do you mod?

If so, what have you been involved with?

When I read a broad sweeping statement like yours I get to wondering the above because I can tell you now as far as GWX was concerned your most definitely incorrect.

FYI I was a modder for about a decade before I became a game developer by trade - starting out with Quake2, Half-Life at the time when mods were really synonymous with 'total conversion' and I've also modded Strike Fighters (a series that's been kept alive by modders to a far greater extent than SH in my opinion) for many years and IMO being a modder is a very cozy place.

When I mod, I can afford to take risks and since I have a day job that pays my bills I can take as much time as I want to in order to make it perfect. When I made mods for SF, I only made stuff that interested me personally, which happens to be obscure what-if designs. And I could afford to make them because I mod for me and if someone else likes it and gives it a 5 star rating that's cool. So you never have to answer to anybody.

On the commercial games I've worked on, it's always been the opposite: minimum risk, cloning what is already popular and suits making the key decisions and telling you to in effect start over from square one after crunching for weeks in order to meet a milestone or present a playable build. Or crunching for weeks on end because someone somewhere has decided that the game gets released on this specific date. Or getting laid off after said crunch :D

As a modder, you really have complete freedom to do whatever you want to and if someone pesters you about a release date you just say '2 weeks' and go about your business. Your only constraints are literally free time and how moddable your base game is.

So yes, modders have done a lot to fix the various iterations of the SH franchise, but I take issue with the somewhat irreverent-sounding attitude some display against the devs on internet forums. Yes, the games are broken on release, but it's not because they're being made by a bunch of incompetents and need the modders to step in and show how it's done. They're broken because there were factors outside the devs' control and they had to compromise or face cancellation or layoffs.

Most interesting (and I'm happy taking your word) because knowing a few people in the business they have told of similar experiences.

One small difference irl can sometimes be as a member of such a large community as we have here and informing people of WIP (not my decision as I wasn't the project manager) and in so doing building up peoples expectations which in itself can be counter productive because of the self induced build up of pressure....but I guess your aware of that.

BTW...I really enjoyed Quake2.

I agree about building up people's expectations and how that can induce pressure which is unfortunate because I believe one shouldn't be feeling pressure doing what is essentially a hobby.

It's not the first time that I read stories about modders becoming game developers (the hobby becomes a job). Sort of career like in other fields... involves stress management, like in other fields, I guess.
I don't know, but I was involved in a major IT project lately together with other 10 people : what i could notice is that apparently on every idea, there were, most of the times, 10 different ways to go (11) ...

Interesting discussion !

OK, I remembered my password.

Reading this thread reminded me how I was involved with Dr Sid and a few others to make a community sub sim. Started out with the basic world, getting the physics right and a few decent 3d models to play with.

The idea was to make a Sub Command / Dangerous Waters type sim. It failed due to real life, as you can see I hardly post here anymore, too busy with family.

I'd love to see a Sub Command type sim but without the flaws. IE a dynamic scenario that was less scripted, ie wouldn't play out the same way if you played it over and over, better AI etc. I like Dangerous Waters but in the end I think it lost focus, tried to do too many things in one package.

As for being a modder. Yes sometimes the expectations are high, people asking when the next sub will be ready, when such a function will be done, and then getting crucified if it doesn't meet expectations or doesn't work as they thought it would. I've been involved in my fair share of disagreements, being just as quilty of going off on one.

I also wouldn't like a full systems sim. I'm happy enough to tell my sub which direction and what depth I want it to go. I don't want to go to the point of fiddling with my trim tanks or running up the reactor. Though better damage control would be good.

Anyway I'd love to see a good community subsim, or even a commercial one but I don't think it's going to happen.

Hello Xabbarus.
Nice to see you again :)

First, artificial intelligence is not yet as far as to replace human brain, but getting closer and closer.

I dislike to read complaints "of any kind" about Sub Command or Dangerous Waters, as by release they were playable at a great "extent", at least if you compare it to the SH series where after two years I didnt even manage to install the game (SH5).

Sub Command was patched until very stable and even Dangerous Waters came out unbelivably stable at launch. The modders failed I am sorry, in the name of more realism, playability has suffered too much.

I have been an enemy of the modding trend on DW very soon, for at least two reasons:
- the objective to make a more realistic DW is stupid (sorry).
- the release rate of updates has been too frequent.

The disaster is just done if SA doesnt get back.

hi XabbaRus,

what about the 'Danger From The Deep' group ?
this project was so lovely progressing and the team had made a very impressive work so far.
but it ended up without any support from modders. and when i am saying modders i mean programmers and technicians and not the 'eye candies' modders(these can step in at the end and polish the whole thing).
i believe that we will see a real sim for subs at future when some serious programmers and mechanics steps in ('Danger From The Deep' was one step for achieving it if some serious programmers and mechanics joined them)

also, i read somewhere that the DCS may expand their sim(what a great team for plane sim!) to other vehicles too (maybe subs will find their way in)

or ,...long shot.....lets wish the sonalysts to strike back !

i completely agree with all you said Nexus7:yep:

Sub Command , Dangerous Waters (and their 'mother' 688i) are the best subsim(even unmodded) we have... even today

Danger from the Deep was essentially a more hardcore Silent Hunter 3. I personally believe it failed because the team bit off more than they could chew and lost interest.

When you're developing something, there's a certain amount of momentum that needs to be kept and once you lose that it's usually the end of that project. The world of sims is littered with once-promising projects that turned out to be just too ambitious and were abandoned.

I also agree...Sonalysts sim were not top when it comes to graphics but their core naval engine is the best commerical naval engine out there.... the possibilites - especially with DW - were and are still endless - especially with the mods.

I've never really understood why not more people have tried out or play regularily DW especially after their was the DW Wiki with a lot of good content , tutorials and articles. Also DW really does not need a high-end machine.

For me it has to be that DW and the Sonalysts games in general are too much like technical demonstrations than immersive games the likes of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising. It's kind of like how Black Shark is much more advanced simulator yet in ways a much lesser sim than Gunship 2000 was 20 years ago.

Yes, that is true and if I have one major criticism concerning DW than that they might should have put a little more effort in getting away from the look-and-feel of a navy trainer but emphasizing (optionally) more the captain's view like in RedStormRising. You're right, RSR is still unbeaten when it comes to transporting a strong theme (cold war) within a nuclear submarine simulator.
What I really find astonishing is that even after more than 20 years there are still new reviews about this sim published in different languages and all those reviews are transporting the same message: How is it possible that such an old software creates such a tense atmosphere with minimal graphics&audio and compared to today's standard with a minimal budget.

What I've also realized is that apart from the power of the mission editor in DW, which is boosted by undocumented features - like the possibility to fine-control individual AI units, the majority of the people do not have the time or the passion to play with this tool. I think that more or less all Microprose simulations from the 80's and early 90's had dynamic campaigns, was a big contributor to their success.

I think a big reason why RSR still holds up well is because it's a Sid Meier game. The guy's a genius.

:haha: must agree: the games i played the most are still civilization 1 and 2

One of the issues with having our "community" design a subsim is gaining consensus.

Each one of us knows what would make a great sub sim game.....but can we agree?

Some want emphasis on graphics for appearance
Some want more reasonable graphics for platform compatibility)
Some want more technical simulation (player does more stuff)
Some want less technical simulation (player delegates stuff to AI)
Some want adversarial multiplayer
Some want cooperative multiplayer
Some don't want multiplayer at all.

And probably a hundred more conflicting desires.

What is important to me, I can guarantee is not important to others.

I just can't see the Subsim community working this out en-mass.

First two points apart (not sure what you mean with the second one), the other points are not conflicting and covered by DW.

In Dangerous Waters you can choose full manual or delegate some stations to the AI.

Some want adversarial multiplayer - DW has it
Some want cooperative multiplayer - DW has it (so called multistation multiplayer)
Some don't want multiplayer at all. -DW has it

but you're right anyway. Despite the above points are well covered, the list of whishes in regards of DW is as long as the bible. And I don't call me out: for example in SC the CM's couldnt detonate the fishes, making evasion an art. In DW they can. I don't like that :hmph:

To set up a suitable team for such a project is probably as difficult as the development part itself :timeout:

OpenSubSim ??
 

Hi to all.
I have read thie discussion and it is very interesting.
My dream is to have an OpenSource framework to simulate all vehicle (submerged and surfaced). A sort of OS subsim where anyone can create modules (open and closed source, both free and to be purchased) and simulate a sea war game.

I would like it to be:
1) OpenSource and free
2) Playable in internet
3) With real and NPC vessel

I have read an academy project very interesting:
http://oceansys.fe.up.pt/publication...antosMatos.pdf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wavesim/

Is this project useful to understand how to simulate physics?
Are there other resources to study, analize, understand dynamics, sound propagation and water simulation?

I know that similar projects have been attempted ...are there any source code to study?

I would like to use:

3D Engine: http://sourceforge.net/projects/irrlichtlime/
Phisics Engine: http://www.mataliphysics.com/
Network Library: http://code.google.com/p/lidgren-network-gen3/
Sound Library: http://www.ambiera.com/irrklang/

Any type of help is welcome!!

Sorry for my bad english.
Regards.

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation goes for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!