Take onboard as many Flaks as you need, I am more concerned about their accuracy than about their number ;)

I think this behaviour is due to poor AI programming: the error angle is applied randomly whereas we would expect AI gunners to progressively correct their aim. Unfortunately fixing it, is outside our reach. :-?
By the way: as suggested by Rongel, the aim accuracy of our gunner is greatly affected by crew experience. Did you made your tests in campaign or in a custom mission? What did you set as crew experience for your sub?

you crazy russians!
Several weeks ago I found this video by a country mate of you, where he is firing a 40 mm automatic gun :o
If you like, in his youtube channel you can preview his whole arsenal in action :rotfl2:

This seems to confirm the fact that guns aboard the player's sub are not affected by settings in Sim.cfg :hmmm:
By the way, the intent of this mod was to decrease AI guns' accuracy to the level of stock sub guns, keeping the latter unchanged.

You have been perfectly clear: a max error angle of 15 deg is excessive in game and it would be, after all, highly unlikely in real life :up:
On the other hand, I am curious to know the crew ranking of that taskforce, if you can provide this information...

"a bit" is a relative therm: what is a bit for me is a lot for you. But what actually happened during that test? Were sub Flaks also affected by "my bit" or just ships's guns?

That is sure. Tell me to jam those guns and I will! ;)
In any case I think that the aim of our crew should be comparable to the one of the player: a bit worse than ours at their lowest ranking, and slightly better than ours when they gain the maximum experience. :yep:

Thank you,
I appreciate your valuable help, but take your time on it: I don't want to burden you, and I know you have another important work is waiting for you ;)

In any case, I plan to join you in carrying the extra tests.

From now on, if possible, they should be carried out in custom missions. Moreover, in our reports, we should take notes of:

approximate time of the day (dawn/sunset, morning/afternoon, noon, or night);
moon visibility and moonphase (for night missions)
wind speed, cloud coverage, precipitations, fog
ships included in the mission and their ranking
sub crew ranking

In the campaign.. I can't make the missions.. I'm too lazy and still have not figured out the ME2.. :nope:
I have no idea what kind of experience in my crew.. third campaign.. probably veterans..

Yep.. We are.. :haha:

I can't.. but I think Trevally can..
These were taskforces around Malta.. May-June 41

Everything in this life is relative :hmmm: :D
Don't remember exactly.. I'll retest it..

Agree..

Don't thank.. You do a lot more for all of us..

Maybe you can make a few different custom missions for this.. it would have helped a lot.. :yep:

Okay, I got your point: I will create a set of custom missions especially designed for our tests. Tomorrow. Now I am going to watch a good movie :up:

Ok.. I just thought that a month of such correspondence and my English will be much better.. :D

I hope you take my english with a pinch of salt :03: :haha:

I noticed that the best communication is obtained with people for whom English is not their native language.. We are not so much focusing on the possible errors because we didn't notice them.. :up:

EDIT: and we use mostly simple words..

yes and not. Sometimes I feel I express myself better with native speakers... maybe because I do my best not to be accused to spoil their language :haha:

:hmmm:
did some new tests.. results differ from the previous ones.. you were right.. we need some custom missions to check.. if the initial conditions are identical it will be easier.. in a dynamic campaign is difficult to properly evaluate the result.. different aircrafts, different crew experiences, different weather conditions etc..

:salute:

As expected: there are so many variables in game that if we don't fix some of them, understanding what's going on with our change won't be easy, if possible at all :yep:

:hmmm: so, for beginning we need two different missions (I think so) -

1. the sub with two/three AA-guns on board and several different enemy planes

2. the enemy task-force and several different our and friendly planes

weather conditions, time of day etc. we can change in the mission's settings window before mission start..

For a start, I think we need still to answer the following questions:

1. is the Max error angle (Sim.cfg) applied to player's guns, or not?
2. are the two gun-specific Trav and Elev tolerance affecting aiming accuracy?
3. if yes, how are they combined with the above Max error angle setting (multiplied, adde, etc.)?

By saying that we need to answer these questions, I mean that we got to remove any possible doubt about them. We have already discussed them, but so far we have only unconfirmed hypothesis :yep:

With this premise in mind, I am proposing the following method:

• creating a basic mission with standard settings and just an U-boat, a ship and an enemy airplane: the more stuff we put in it, the more the unpredictable interactions between various elements, whereas we want to do things as simple as possible.
• changing just one single setting at a time, no matter if it is a mission related parameter or a gun setting.
• answering just one question at a time: again it will make things a lot easier.
• ignoring any realism consideration: right now we should be only concerned about the game mechanism. Finetuning it will be the second (...or third :O:) step.

If you agree with this method, I would like to find an answer to the first question:

is the Max error angle (Sim.cfg) applied to player's guns, or not?

for doing it we need for the above mentioned mission (an U-boat with a single Flak and an airplane without bombs), IRAI, and a set of modifications of the 'Max error angle' parameter. Here's the plan of our tests:

• test 1: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 0.00 test mod (AA Max error angle=0)
• test 2: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 2.25 test mod
• test 3: SH5 + IRAI (AA Max error angle=4.5, this is our "blank" that any other test will be copared with)
• test 4: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 6.75 test mod
• test 5: SH5 + IRAI + ErrAng 9.00 test mod

If our assumption (that the AA Max error angle is not affecting our Flaks) was true, we would expect the precision of our AI gunners not to change from a test to another test. On the contrary, if we were wrong, their precision should decrease from test 1 to test 5 :yep:

How to "measure" and report the results of our tests? Two ways come to my mind; we can:

• adopt a subjective method by expressing the performance of our gunner in comparison the blank test (much worse, worse, slightly worse, slightly better, better, much better)

or (preferably) we can:

• adopt a numeric reporting: number of salvos required for downing the plane, or times the plane dived to attack us before it got shot down, or (even better) number of bullets left after downing it. In order to make things even easier, I think I will give the plane abundance of harmless dummy shells, and I will also increase our ammo storage.

What do you think? Can I go on preparing the mission and the test mods? :sunny:

:oops: I'm still thinking not, because -

http://s19.postimage.org/srwndernn/image.jpg

I think we should use both types of reports.. :yep:
but what is accepted as the standard in the first variant?

Let's do it :up:

So do I, but better making sure of it ;)

test 3 (SH5 + IRAI)

I am on it: just give me half an hour :salute:

I believe that we need to make adjustments to the plan:

test: SH5 + NewUis + IRAI

The thought is: we can't order - "fire at will" without an interface.. in the stock game we able to designate target using binoculars only.. :down:

Yes indeed: I didn't make any mention to the use of an UI mod because I thought it was implicit :up:

I never actually played with the stock UI :haha:

P.S: your suggestion arrived just at the right moment: the test mission is ready, but after a first test (Mew UIs enabled), crew refuses to fire against the plane :-?
I will try changing the crew doctrine to aggressive, and in case of failure my stubborn gunner will become food for sharks :yep:

I had for the first time a closer look at our gunner in action in what would be our test #3 (SH5 + NEW UIs + IRAI) and man, is he stupid!

I think he didn't score any hit, and when I finally resolved to get rid of the Hurricane by myself, I realized that he had already finished all my ammunition :mad:

...wait, I will try raising the veterancy level to elite and let's see what will happen :hmmm:

Make sure that the order - "fire at will" is enabled..
Sometimes I had to repeatedly switch from order "fire at will" to order "hold fire"..
And sometimes they didn't open fire for some strange reason.. :hmmm:

Yes, ordering battlestations helps as well :yep:

Anyway, right now the problem is that even at at close range and with veterancy level set to "elite", my gunner can't score a single hit. :nope:

Either crew ranking isn't applied in my custom mission, or a single C/30 mounted on the aft deck (so is equipped the VIIA U-boat that I've picked for the mission) is not very effective with stock settings. :hmm2:

In the circumstances, I think it will be pointless to carry on test #4 and #5. You can download the mission from this link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/25305789...ion%20%231.rar

JSGME ready. Missions settings:

date and hour: 01/01/1940 12:00
clouds: none
fog: none
wind speed: 5 m/s
Wind heading: N

sub veterancy level: elite
sub doctrine: aggressive
aircraft veterancy level: competent
aircraft doctrine: aggressive

I think you can do the changes to Sim.cfg required for the planned test by yourself. Note that there are two Max error angle settings. Only one gets applied to AA guns:

Besides the mods required for our tests, I suggest you to enable the mod you have created for increasing Flak's ammo (make sure not to make any other change than this one). The one Flak that you will need to edit is the C/30 (20mm_C30 in Objects/Guns folder)
The one Hurricane I've put in mission cannot harm that much your U-boat, so I left its armaments unchanged.
Before entering in mission, make sure to select the VIIA (if you select the VIIB, you won't get any Flak aboard your boat). Also make sure to adopt the same firing ordesr for all of your tests the tests (I used attack at close range / closing targets, with battlestations activated). That's all :up:

That's all folks © :D

I will report within an hour.. maybe two.. :up:

PS: I'm not so silly for such detailed instructions :haha:

news.. good or bad? don't know exactly..

Mission Impossible © :O:

test 1: SH5 + NewUIs + IRAI + Sim.cfg ErrAng=0.00 & 20mm_C30.sim Ammo=1200

clouds: none
fog: none
wind speed: 0 m/s

sub speed: All Stop & Ahead Slow
battlestations: activated
range: close & medium

EDIT: total: four tests - /All Stop+close/ & /All Stop+medium/ & /Ahead Slow+close/ & /Ahead Slow+medium/

no one hit.. at all..

the other tests didn't hold.. I see no reason..
previous tests (in the campaign) I did on a boat 7C with one C38-twin.. there were hits.. often..