Slightly off topic but what does the Dutch flag stand for? What is the symbolism? Like the US flag represents the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states, or the UK flag represents the union of England, Scotland and Ireland. But what does the Dutch flag symbolize?

Wikipedia didn't say anything on this so I hope some of our Dutch subsimmers could fill me in.

I wouldn't know what the three stripes stand for specifically, but a nation's flag will in any event stand for the nation itself and the values of its people.

Jeebus.....don't forget Wales :o

Wouldn't want to upset the noodle miners now, would we. :DL

http://media.worldflags101.com/i/flags/netherlands.gif

The red stripe which was originally orange, along with the white and blue stripes, are based on the heraldic colors (coat of arms) of Prince William of Orange, who led the fight for Dutch independence.

Don't let it rest!
 

This should be a front-page story in the papers. You should make sure that all of Netherlands, the UN, the world know what happened.

If they are suitably embarassed, this might not happen again. Your Father deserves an official apology.

Write it up on a brochure and put it in the neighbourhood mailboxes, on posts, everywhere.

The Dutch people fought for that flag and should do so again! :nope: :nope: :nope:

Ah, I see. I guess the three stripes were easier to draw than the heraldry, then. :O:

Ah so it is just a extension of the coat of arms and has no deeper significance. I would say that the lack of a deeper significance is interesting in of its self, and it shows how highly regarded Prince William of Orange is in the Netherlands. :hmmm:

Wales is not represented on the Union Jack. The Welsh flag is a Red dragon. :yep:

Why the change from orange to red?

Hmm, a quick search suggests the Orange does indeed stand for the Orange family, the white stands for the government, and blue for the Nassau duchy. It doesn't seem to be "just" an extension of the coat of arms.

That said, William of Orange is indeed deeply respected here. He is the founder of our country after all.
It's also interesting to note that the Netherlands were founded as a republic of independent states (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands), much like the USA. Only after Napoleon was defeated in 1815 (after he conquered our country in 1795) did we become a monarchy.
Also see the first lines of our anthem:
Wilhelmus van Nassouwe ben ik van Duitsen bloed, den vaderland getrouwe blijf ik tot in den dood. Een prinse van Oranje ben ik, vrij onverveerd, den Koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd geëerd.
(William of Nassau am I from German blood, loyal to the fatherland I will remain until death. A prince of Orange am I, rather undaunted, the King of Spain I have always honoured.)

Why the orange changed to red is not entirely clear. It might be because of a lack of orange pigments, it might be for better visibility or for any of a number of reasons.

Culture does change through time. These changes have always been relatively slow, up until the industrial revolution. But even in that time period, I dare say our culture did evolve on its own and was often not directly influenced by other cultures (foreign technology, surely, but not cultures). Our "modern" culture (19th century onwards) still differs very much from other cultures, even though there has been extensive contact with many foreign cultures throughout the years.

And I truly believe that, should immigration be limited to a minimum, our culture will continue to differ from other western European cultures.

But a house been broken down or a tree cut isn't a change in culture. It's very understandable that it makes you sad, but for me it's a quite different change. The destruction of your childhood memories does not change your identity as a Norwegian.
If you do or don't mind these changes is indeed a personal matter I guess.

Personally I really love cultural differences, if I'm in another country I always try to soak up as much of the local culture as I can. I always want to try the local dishes, no matter how many creepy disgusting organ meat it contains. I admire the local architecture. I observe the local way of life. I listen to the language.
Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if this all is gone? If no matter what country you go to, you see minarets, you eat halal food, you hear Arabic speech?

I don't think it will go that far, eventually someone will interfere, but as of now, that's what we're heading.
It isn't a question of Islam per se, I know muslims that are perfectly integrated into Dutch society, and of which you wouldn't even know they were immigrants, if not for their looks. But in private, they are very well muslims.
Similarly, I also know non-muslims that completely did not integrate into our society and behave like they would do in their home country. They often do not even speak Dutch.
I prefer the first category by far.

BTW, interesting discussion IMO:up:

No wonder no one wants to show the flag, its a symbol of tyranny! Let see it represents: The dude in charge (William of Orange), his minions (The Government), his seat of power (Nassau duchy).

Just Kidding.


IIRC Orange is a mix of Red and Green, meaning someone making a flag would have to mix those colors in a dye, while Red and Blue are two of the primary colors and thus easy to make. White is of course an absence of color.

You are quite correct...my apologies. Wales was already united to England when the first version of the Union Flag was designed in 1606. :oops:

http://www.know-britain.com/general/union_jack.html

Nor does the building of churches, nor does the building of mosques. If there's another mosque built, how will that affect my identity as a Norwegian? How will it affect your identity as Dutch?



Not really. Everywhere you go you get McDonald's and Burger King, and various taco and kebab shops. The halal and kebab stands are no more detrimental to any culture than McDonalds, Burger King or KFC. Or 7-11, for pete's sake. They're everywhere, but there's much more to culture than that.

As for mosques, it's more or less the same thing: there are churches all over Europe (all over the world, in fact), but the churches are all different. Though I'm an atheist, I love visiting churches when I'm abroad, as long as they have some antiquity to them. The architecture of the great cathedrals is really breathtaking, and I love history. The Moors also left many traces of their presence in Spain, and isn't that just a good thing? I think it is good for people to leave their mark behind. And so long as there is religious freedom in the Netherlands, there can be nothing anti-Dutch about churches, mosques, Buddhist temples or whatever. The only difference is that you are used to churches and the sound of church bells - you are not used to minarets and sounds of Muslim prayer. It's a new flavour to you, and maybe you don't like the flavour, but as long as the new flavour conforms to local morals and laws, why let it rub you the wrong way?


Seconded :yep:

Kissaki - the biggest concern is exactly what you bring up - the non-conformity. Islam has overwhelmingly agitated for ITS way to be followed - regardless of the morals or customs of the area. Everything from insisting women be "fully covered" to demands that Sharia Law be put into place.

Its important to note that Islam isn't the only religion ever to do this - Xtianity historically was known for doing the same - until it figured out that it needed to adapt as well as cause adaptation of its surrounding society. The issue is that Islam - and its followers, are not willing to do so. Sure - that is a "blanket generalization" - but look at all the riots in france for example as examples of muslims who are unwilling to respect any but their own views.....

Christianity has adapted itself beyond beliefs. For example, to win more pagan souls the Christians "invented" lots of holidays that just "coïncidentally" happened to match pagan holidays.
Or rather, just gave the already existing pagan holidays a Christian meaning.
They literally copied an astounding amount of symbology from heathen festivities.

For example, Christmas is no more than simply the winter solstice. The Christmas Tree being taken from the Germanic use of holding the Winter Solstice activities around a large tree.
The "Santa Clause" part of Christmas comes from the Dutch holiday of Sinterklaas (Saint Nicholas' holiday). That in itself is largely copied from Germanic Yule festivities.
Note this typical picture of Sinterklaas:
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3117/dak2vz5.jpg
Sinterklaas (=Odin) with a grey beard (literally copied from Odin) and a staff (=Gungnir) in his hand on his gray horse (=Sleipnir) that can climb roofs (Sleipnir could fly) throws presents (=gifts/candy, just like nowadays) down the chimney, in exchange for small gifts (=offerings) in the form of carrots, straw etc. (literally copied from Pagan customs) for Sinterklaas' horse.

To say that Christianity adapted to the Germanic society would be an understatement. They almost made themselves immerse into Germanic society instead to convert us "from within".

It will affect my identity as a Dutchman because it changes our culture. It brings large, instantly recognizable aspects of a foreign culture into ours.
Many mosques with no minarets or calls to prayer would hardly matter. One mosque with minarets and calls to prayer would hardly matter. In both cases it doesn't influence the Dutch culture significantly.
But when you build many mosques with minarets and calls to prayer, you are bringing Arabic influences into our culture on a large scale.
Thus changing the Dutch culture.
Thus changing my identity as a Dutchman.

That kebab shops are not very detrimental to our culture is simply because the foreign cultural influences remain relatively contained inside the kebab stands. Whenever I enter a kebab shop, a Chinese restaurant or an Italian pizza shack, I immediately notice the foreign cultures. I smell the food. I see foreign ornaments and decorations. I hear the Turkish, Chinese or Italian music. But the moment I set one step out the door, I'm back in the Netherlands again.

Minarets and calls to prayer however are easily visible/audible from well outside the enclosed environment of the Mosque.

And also these differences in churches around Europe are a sign of differencing cultures. Our Dutch churches look very different from e.g. Breton churches (just picking a region I've regularly visited) or Norwegian churches (Urnes stave church, wooow!:o Definitely on my list of places I want to visit in my life:up:)

I don't know if the Moorish influences are a good thing. I know too little of the historical Spanish and Moorish culture and especially about the differences between the two to say anything useful about it.
And besides, it would be just a matter of opinion anyway.

Fact is that the Spanish culture is already "contaminated" by the muslims (Moors) while the Dutch culture hasn't been yet.
Also, Moorish influence in Spain is quite logical. They were neighbouring people, there are always mutual influences in those cases.

There's nothing anti-Dutch about mosques in itself.
The thing I find anti-Dutch are the minarets and calls to prayer, because they change the Dutch culture, and thus are automatically "anti".

Darkfish - your absolutely right on with Xmas. The fact that Jesus was obviously not born in the middle of winter seems to escape alot of people LOL. Still - you see Islam doing anything like that?

Like I said before, Christianity had the benefit of growing up alongside our culture, which is why it is familiar and "safe" for us. The Age of Enlightenment did wonders for secularism in Europe, but overall the Church is now as it has always been, just as stubborn as Islam. The various denominations don't want to be changed by outside influences, and neither does Islam. The only thing we can reasonably demand of immigrants is that they follow the laws of the land. As long as they do that, we don't have a right to criticize them for their ways.

Also, if you look at the riots in France, you'll find that the rioters were mostly kids, not Muslims. Same as football hooligans, who will jump at any opportunity to wreak havoc: football is just an excuse.

How? If it doesn't make you Muslim, how does it affect your identity?


Yet on the outside you can still see the shops and smell the food. It's not like you only notice the foreign element once you go inside. And why should that even matter? What you define as "Dutch", how "Dutch" would that be to Dutchmen 100 years ago? And someone immigrating to the Netherlands, and whose children become Dutch citizens, are they not allowed to decide on what is "Dutch" every bit as much as you?


I really don't see the problem with that.


And that's exactly what I am saying: there are Dutch churches, so why not Dutch minarets? Christianity was just as alien to that region once as Islam is today.


Why "contaminated"? Tomorrow's generation of Dutchmen may be accustomed to minarets, seeing them as being just as Dutch as church towers. Why would that be a bad thing?


Again I have to ask, how?

Making or not making me muslim doesn't have much to do with it, it changes my identity as a Dutch by changing the Dutch culture. By changing the culture, it changes what I am as a Dutchman, what being Dutch stands for, and thus changes my identity as a Dutchman.

You can notice foreign elements when you're outside, but not nearly as good as when you're inside, and only when you're right in front of the shop. Minarets and calls to prayer are much more prominent elements that you can see from much, much farther away.

I never said culture doesn't change.
There's a difference though between culture changes caused by advances in technology, and changes caused by foreign elements extensively brought into a culture.

That's the same as saying that a country has to adapt to its immigrants, instead of the immigrants to the country. Until an immigrant has adapted to the culture of his host country, I really don't see why he should be allowed to decide on what defines the host country's culture.

And that's where our opinions differ, I really do see the problem with that.

You are confusing religion with culture. Churches/mosques are part of religion, while (the architecture of) church towers/minarets are an aspect of culture.

In this context, with contaminated I don't necessarily mean a bad thing. Just that the old 'pure' Spanish culture was 'contaminated' by Moorish culture to form the modern Spanish culture.

I could ask you just as well how that would not be a bad thing. 'Bad' is subjective.

Besides, they can never be as Dutch as church towers. As you pointed out yourself, churches all over Europe are very different. Dutch churches look completely different from French, Norwegian or British churches. But "Dutch" minarets look exactly the same as [random Islamic country] minarets.

You mean, "how do they change culture?"
I already answered that:
"It brings large, instantly recognizable aspects of a foreign culture into ours.
Many mosques with no minarets or calls to prayer would hardly matter. One mosque with minarets and calls to prayer would hardly matter. In both cases it doesn't influence the Dutch culture significantly.
But when you build many mosques with minarets and calls to prayer, you are bringing Arabic influences into our culture on a large scale."