http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...8&postcount=36

37 minutes after CaptainNemo posted

Yes, I stated that in my post one of the crew responded. The offer was dismissed by KL. Read that part again and quote the whole thought.

AVG, I can only address a few things you've stated as I am cancelling needed sleep again. (We've been getting our tails kicked at my RL job.)

...so I suppose that when people get nasty with us that we continue cooperating or remain impassive regardless?

AVG, I did not mean to imply that the moderators are idiots... but what we have seen is plain and simple fatigue and disinterest with the 'issues' cause threads to be locked instead of finding resolution.

I think your response is heavy with fatigue.

I feel rotten about the OLC incident... and for quite some time now, I've given him full cooperation with his modding wishes as a sort of penance.. Infact I sent him links to a late GWX 2.1 beta to facilitate his efforts following our final release... as a sort of penance. (Ask him if I did so.) He and I have since spoken on a number of occasions on TS for the sake of ensuring compatability.

Racerboy took a meter and expected the mile... My reaction to him... was the TEAM's reaction... not only my own. You cannot personalize it to being "Kpt. Lehmann's" sole reaction. Every element of that occasion was channeled to the team first.

Markshot posted his opinions, and subsequently got upset when we scrutinized his methodology.

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off. No one here pays my rent or puts fuel in my car. Not responding to a post is not the same as DISMISSING it.. and quite a few things get channeled through the team first. Captain Nemo's offer would naturally be one of those things that requires a bit of discussion.

Regarding cooperation, you are not able to comment without conjecture, on how much or how little we've done to assist others external to the team. You are infact oblivious to it because you are not privy to team communications. We do so privately. We don't ring church bells when we do such things.

You responded to my post before it was complete. I've tried as hard as I know how to calmly post an open and honest reason in a nut shell, why we have done things a certain way... and you have dismissed it.

You are entitled to your opinion.

However, if I am the ogre that you'd like to paint... the Grey Wolves mod would never have seen the light of day. (or at least would be under some other name and some other team leader)

You guys do on occasion make snap decisions because you only get the part of the picture you can see... or because you sense a temperature change.

I can understand being tired of all the crap. I can't describe how tired I am of it myself.

The thing is guys, is as Privateer stated. We are not going away. We've developed a system that works... and actually produces. Big stuff frightens people sometimes when they don't understand all the bits that go with it.

If that system is significantly changed... the project will cease to exist.

If some feel that the project has gotten too big... they will continue to feel that way. Not a darn thing we can do about that. What some will describe as malicious... we may feel is simply defending our honor.

Bottom line though. If you don't like what we produce... don't use it. If you can't stand us... don't read our posts. Nothing we can do will take away your interests or free will... or vice versa. Given these thoughts... It seems to me that it would be rather easy to be philisophical about it ALL. Besides, this kind of discussion was bound to happen sooner or later.

Cheers for now.

<zips up bunker coat>

Oh yeah sorry

37 minutes=finally

And when did KL blow him off ?
What because he didnt reply
No secret KL is stepping down from GWX due to RL
Ref already answered Capt Nemo

Secret to me. No matter, again, I stated one of the crew replied. KL did not. As the TEAM LEADER....I would reply. But that is just me.

Ah, all the other thoughts posted there and this is the sole one you have issue with? Amazing:hmm:

Not the sole one but you directed your post elsewhere

I could go on but theres no point debating with you is there
We all know which side your loyalties lie on

Meh

:zzz:

Fair enough on all counts. With exception of the last, "you responded before it was complete". Second time I have seen this and suspect it is part part of your sig. Might be wrong. There is one issue however and it is the "privy to team communications". Some do not like that. They feel files created by others are being used and sold as GWX's own. This is all I can say. RFB is an open forum. Help yourself. Nothing to hide, nothing privy. Sometimes church bells are good. I do see church bells from the crew in their threads. Bits and pieces. One in particular concerned the planes being added. That thread turned into the Sisten Chapel of bells. But, that is good for the community. It helps satisfy their wants and desires. Also knowing something good is coming. And speaking for myself, it is always is good if it is coming from the GWX Team. I can not deny that at all.

As far as responding with fatique....yep, this thing has gone on long enough. It is tiresome to say the least. Again, the fellas in SH4 want an atta boy and do not want to be brushed off to the side. They prefer the PTO. They do not want to be put in the corner. In good faith, the made the PTO compatible with the new 1.5 uboat add on. They really did not have to. This could have stopped at patch 1.4 much like SH3 did. But the persist and have a want/desire to please the uses but also want the users to be a part of it as well....hence the bell ringing and hey, give this beta a go.

Thank you for responding and hope you see the point these fellas are attempting to make. In this world of sour crap, no need to come to Subsim were it is a release for most and endure more bitterness. Help and be helped.

Your posts are very telling...specifically, 'loyalties' there in lies the problem....us verses them...and I'm darn sure coming out on top to boot. Circle the wagons boys. This is how I read your post. It is our hope that this "loyalties" you have posted stops at the doorstep of SH4. Mod war and loyalties are not wanted. Please leave the loyalties at the door along with your shoes...we are attempting to keep a clean house. Your are bolstering the mod war with response like this. Hence my response a few post back that would upset or make you aghast. I detect you are upset because you do not see how the thread progress as I. For that, I'm truly sorry. KL has posted and his post is fair in all respects with exception of one that I responed to. I let it rest between he and I because 65 hours a week working sucks. Been there and done it.

I understand this is your baby and like parents, they defend their babies. No fault there.

It is not a matter of not liking what you produce. It is a grand mod in all aspects and I speak truth on this matter. What the SH4 modders do not want happen is SH4 turning into a 100% uboat sim and the SH4 mod forum to be nothing but Uboats. They want to share the forum as brothers who have an interest in submersible. No us verses them. Many have waited for years for a PTO sim. Here it is....6 months later, here is a uboat add on. Back to square on as they thought but in all reality....the PTO goes on! So, all of this is really senseless to be sure. Anyway, you are correct, discussion on this matter need to be brought to the table. Thanks for and listening. I hope I have given the general consensus on what the modders in SH4 feeling at the moment. I believe you do as you also defend you honor as much as they want to defend theirs.


Same to you as you are looking at 65 hours next week. :x arrrrhhhhhgggg that sucks.


Oh shoot, edit here, I guess you get timed out when posting. Very odd. I do not know of anyone else that happens too. Anyway, now I understand your last sentence about hanging on before I get timed out. It was not my intention to start beating my keyboard before you were finished.

Just a request. Would you mind quoting my entire post instead of pulling bits out of context?

It really can change the meaning of what I wrote.:-?

g'nite all

Tried to quote but unfortunately something went wrong and only quoted certain words .

There is a bright future for the fleetboats Sub Sailor so don't get down in the dumps to far. It is probably true that UBI will go with the uboats and will simply throw the PTO a cookie with future addons like say a new icon on the screen or maybe a different hat or something but don't underestimate the modders we have for the PTO. NO SINGLE PERSON knows as much about the SH4 structure as Ducimus and the things that the RFB team is doing is incredible to say the least. I would also be afraid to even guess how much time Lurker has spent on this.

I bought that silly addon because I wanted to support the SH4 series and I knew the mods would be forced to move in that direction but I also anticipated the PTO to be taken care of by the wonderful modders here. I think everything will be OK and in the end, just like in real life, the US campaign against the Japs will be successful and the uboats will end up on the sea floor, just like it ought to be. And one day, maybe we can have a surrender mod and remind everybody exactly who came out on top and who went to see Davey Jones.:cool:

As long as I have fun playing with both Pacific and Atlantic Boats (well a bit more with the Atlantic actually) I am happy and I don't care if I need to surrender in the end. ;) :p :D

But seriously Ron you should try the TM Mod. It is really good and I am sure you will enjoy it :yep:

No problem at all Kpt. Some of that due to the time out issue you experience I suspect when getting your point across. If some of the posts seemingly look out of context it was not intentional and I did not know a timeout caused you headaches when attempting to getting a post up. As you recognized, fatique plays a part as well. Again, not intentional. If there is a part you wish to be revisited I will certainly will revisit.

Just to be clear I had no intention of locking the thread last night, and some here did take a step back :yep: As well, I can't speak for the other Moderator's here, but I am sure they feel the same way with regards to all of this, they want to see it end in a positive manner.

Read the below, I don't disagree.

Anyhow I have no doubt that this stuff will eventually work itself out, and thankfully with SH4 eventually folks will have the option of going with the PTO, ATO or both if they so choose.

Again, these are exciting times, here's to the future :up:


RDP

I would not say the add on was silly but everyone has the right to speak what they think about it. It did add more for the fleet boats but more importantly, the add on delivered a stable game. The past 12 months of tweaking this and that are now over. I can honestly say I have experienced no more than 5 CTD with SH4. Some of those CTD induced by me as a matter of fact. So, $10.00 for a stable game prevented me from searching and looking for better computer parts or entire computer. $10.00 saved me $1500.00. Not a bad return at all. To add, it introduced the entire hemisphere for the uboats and for the uboat fans to enjoy. Is that really such a bad thing? Your last paragraph is the crux of the matter, who is better than who, this boat is better then that boat. The 'us versus them' issue. No one needs to be reminded who is on the bottom and who is enjoying the sunshine. It is all in the history books. A world war that is over yet continues in a submersible simulation on this forum. Very odd indeed. We are looking to not just co-exist between theaters but be one community enjoying the interest and study of this branch of the service during that time. Just as I pointed out Bigboywooly's "us versus them" type loyalty I need to do so here. Gentlemen, it is a game turned into a simulation by some bright, talented people cleverly called modders. All of it gets tarnished when co-existence breaks down. I ask all to recognize both theaters exist, some have an undying love for one or the other or both. Sometimes that passion get the better of us. If the uboats do not interest you, no need to read the posts about it. Same for the fleets. Certainly, there is no need to have a commando raid because you are feeling out of sorts on that particular day. This is not the place to come and get a bad day off your chest. All I ask is members to be respectful and leave the playground antagonism on the playground.

And there I had to force myself not to sharply reply to the post you quoted. Nice summary, good post.

But I think this thread really wandered of it's rail. I still wonder, are there already some visions floating around the GWX team has where to lead the development? Can we expect most of the features from GWX2.1 beeing reproduced in the SHIV? Or is there a different scope alltogether? Any tinkering of ideas what to do with the new features SHIV offers over SHIII, or is this too early a time to ask for that, or at all given the private nature of GWX development? Some unbinding comments would be nice just to calm down the little exited child in us for this huge endeavor =)

We are poor little lambs
Who have lost our way.
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We are little black sheep
Who have gone astray.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Damned from here to eternity
God have mercy on such as we.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

Ok, everybody ready to sing it? All right!:up: Let's go.

<SH4 modders (whoever you are!)>
We are poor little lambs
Who have lost our way.

<Everybody!!!!>
Baa! Baa! Baa!

<Ducimus solo!>
We are little black sheep
Who have gone astray.

<Everybody!!!!>
Baa! Baa! Baa!

<KL and the Merry GWXers!!!>
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Damned from here to eternity

<All together now!!>
God have mercy on such as we.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

We are warriors with the same love. Let us not love it to death.

Nothing is set in stone as per your questions Bewolf. But there will be announcements as and when. :up:

I must return to my refrain. GW does business in a quality way. They do not recreate the wheel. I predict that we will be surprised by what they release, especially if we're looking for a port of SH3/GWX2. GW is better than that. For some reason this observation is divisive.

The second part of my refrain: GW is committed to releasing a finished product. We won't hear much about what they're up to before it is almost ready for release. It would be limiting their ability to research and produce new stuff for them to announce ahead of time what they will discover. In the process of building, easy stuff will manifest difficult side effects and become impossible. Things not dreamed of will be discovered that change the entire flavor of the project. Raising false hopes by premature chest beating destroys trust. GW will not do that. They are too committed to exceeding the expectations of their users.

Conclusions drawn from my second part include "divisive and abusive" things I have said in this thread. In order not to prematurely spill the beans and build false hopes based on the current state of their project, they will not be sharing goodies with outside modders at that time. The reasoning will be that it will start a discussion of "What is GW going to do" among the more open society of modders that are presently in SH4. This would create expectation of certain things players will expect from their release, raising the false hopes that would damage GW's reputation.

If they ask for outside help it will be in a black box manner so no false rumors can result. If you are an SH4 modder and are approached like that, I would suggest you give serious thought toward helping them. We have two choices in life: either we owe others or they owe us. Better that they owe us. Don't be the bad guy.

So Bewolf, I can't speak for GW. I know some of the people involved. I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann. He said himself above that tinkering with the underlying organizational zietgeist would destroy GW. I concur. They have much to lose by adopting the methods of SH4 modders.

I'm not going into the incompatibility stuff that people thought was so hateful before, but I will repeat my best analogy: diesel fuel and fertilizer. They're both very beneficial, but when they are mixed you get a boom! Better to let the fertilizer grow food and the diesel fuel power the trucks to take that food to the market.

So my position that mixing the SH4 modders and GW group into one big happy family being impossible is not some hateful comment as some have characterized it. There is a good reason GW is the way it is and there is a good reason the SH4 modding community is the way it is. Let them work separately and cooperate when they can. And be prepared for wonderful things.

I think I've said all this before!