SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Modding Ethics

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- - Modding Ethics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114500)

Whats an anurism feel like anyway? I think i just got one.

You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.

First off, i dont think its resonable to force a multinational crowd of people to conform to some arbitary list of "ethics or morals". Its tantamount to ramrodding down someones throat, and im not down with that at all. And newsflash, not everyone beleives the same thing that you, I, or another person might beleive! Some people, just don't give a **** for what you feel is ethical or not.

If you must hatch up this arbitary ruleset, for christ sakes keep it simple.

Post a damn permissions in your readme (you may, or may not), honor the permissions you find in a readme, and don't plagurise, how hard is that? Anything beyond that, is just one big slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by jimbuna

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So, I ask, without being the school hall safety patrol, how to enforce and look after this eithics code?

You could suspend or even ban the individual (depending on the severity of the offence)...It's been done on here before :yep:

Ultimately this would lay with Neal. Now, this "Code of Modding Ethics", should it be drawn up and left as a sticky in the mod forums? A sticky that will not let responses be made in the postive or negative? This code can not certainly by made up as we go along and interpret things to our liking. What is to go in the code?

My fear here is to what ownership to we attach the modification to the Moddie? Is there a list somewhere? Is a list needed? Perhaps the code just simply states, please acknowlege any work done on this current modification to the original author, I'm just improving the modification or altering the original to fit a different situation? I'm not precisely positive on how one would go about keeping a record of such thing.

As far as GWX, I believe there are 10 pages of acknowledgement for all involved. That is comprehensive in my view. I do not believe other modders should be making new mods with the foundation of GWX, RUB, and the other major modifications as the spring board without acknowlegement and the stamp of approval from the authors of these major mods. The guys spend numerous hours of their time and have a vested interest in keeping the integrity of their creations. So, yes, I believe a code should be set. If there is gross negligence or flagarant disregard for the original authors, then steps should be taken. In all reality, how hard is it for one building on others work to take a minute or two to ask for permission and acknowledge their names in the new mod? Not much at all. We only hope others who decide to build on ask first and build later when permission is granted.

Ok, I spoke my piece.

Let's keep the personal remarks out of this discussion, please. The topic is modding ethics. Why don't we discuss that without pointing fingers or making examples.

I doubt there's any way to enforce a set of mod guidelines, it seems to rely on the honor system. Except in the most egregious cases, Subsim is not going to try to referee disagreements or or prescribe punitive measures. You have to work these things out with the parties involved.

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Originally Posted by danlisa

This is not a thread to discuss the why's or wherefore's of the issue raised in the, now locked, thread but to rather find some agreement between all of us as to how any modder should proceed if he/she wish to produce a mod.

That is exactly what we should use this thread for. Now, take a breath and resume this discussion but keep it civil.

Neal

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If you must hatch up this arbitary ruleset, for christ sakes keep it simple.

Post a damn permissions in your readme (you may, or may not), honor the permissions you find in a readme, and don't plagurise, how hard is that? Anything beyond that, is just one big slippery slope.

Exactly, a simple statment asking that permission be granted to tool around with anothers creation. Please state in the read me who has done what. Nothing more and nothing less. For those parties who feel their creation has been sniped, then these parties must come to an agreement. That agreement would simply state who has done what in the read me.

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Originally Posted by Ducimus

Post a damn permissions in your readme (you may, or may not), honor the permissions you find in a readme, and don't plagurise, how hard is that?

thank you - I can live with and obide that...

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Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

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Exactly, a simple statment asking that permission be granted to tool around with anothers creation.

Just to clarify, some example "permission Satements:

Example 1:

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Permissions:
"You may use any porition of this mod, provided you cite your source and credit the orginal work"

Example 2:

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Permissions:
"You may NOT use any porition of this mod, without my expressed permission"

Find a mod you like? Check the readme, what does it say? Its kind of hard to subvert that because its right there in black and white. It puts the responsbility of protection upon the modder, and doesnt ramrod this list of ethics down the communiitys throat that sound alot like directions for the holy hand grenade of antioch.

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and who was talking about any country's constitution??

'Freedom of speech' is a pretty constitutional term.

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I am talking about my individual rights as a member of this board - as long as I follow the rules I have the right to stand my point of view

No, actually, you don't. Neal can kick you out for putting the letter 'S' in your user-name if he so wishes. This is a privately owned forum.

As for your valuable stuff:

It's a valid point. Rules to agree upon by signing up, as well as Sticky threads with exclamation marks in their title and dangerous-looking icons both tend to be ignored by certain people. If I decided to rip off GWX's new damage model, rules on the forum wouldn't stop me.

I still want them, though, because some people will follow them, instead of the no people who will follow the rules if they aren't there.

Wow, GWX conspiracy theories, anuerisms, and personal threats.

Whatever.

Anyone who thinks I'm having fun here needs their head examined IMHO... and I feel that anyone bringing up the matters that are intended to be discussed here was doomed to get a little mud on their face.

I view this thread as a long overdue effort to simply clear a minefield that has been danced around long enough.

Personal freedoms should not extend to the point where they are chopping off someone else's nose.

Rules, will promote good modding and/or crediting... not slow it down or damage it.

Rules without some sort of recourse are pointless.

Rules placed clearly and prominently in the modding forum here and in the SH4 modding forum will reduce problems... not increase them. Suspension and/or banning would naturally be reserved only for the worst examples. That much has already been done here.

[Addenda: I think any suspensions or bannings would remain and/or be a quite infrequent event. The threat of suspension or banning should be there though for flagrant violations.]

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Originally Posted by Spytrx

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Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Really, we're not talking about throwing people into a dungeon... just suspend them, or boot 'em off of the forum after X-ammount of offenses... or failure to address the issue.

There we have it - the wolf finally showed his colours...

Look mate - you can create all your rules, make an ethics thread and whatever game you want to play - the point is:

People don't have to log on to view anything they like here - do you really think that somebody like me goes through the trouble and asking questions in order to learn something (and mostly get fopped off) comes along to steal your precious little mod? What would I want with it? I have my own ideas how to play the game and there is nothing that your mod offers me. Hell, I almost like it as little as I like the way you (and your posse) talk down on people. The only reason I got involved in this discussion (even with constructive suggestion but you were to busy shooting people down to notice that some of your opponents actually try to get this over with) is simply because I am fed up with meeting people like you everywhere I go that like to take charge and rule over other people. Read the first sentence again - this is a public, open forum! People don't even have to log on to see the threads and can take what they like!

Get real - you think that those people you want to protect yourself against even bother to read your rules and ethics? Even if they did, they just smile and do it for the heck of it. I like to wager that some of those are now inspired to go and get a piece of the code before it goes underground - and that is where you should put it if you want to protect it.

Those modders with morals and ethics don't need a set of rules - and those that do won't bother with them. Look at MS (a company I worked for for many, many years). They spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to protect their work - with little result. The more they try, the more of a target they have become...

You know, some people see the copying of their work as flattery - everybody knows who is behind GWX (there isn't a single forum where your mod isn't discussed and praised, and believe me, I tried to find one) and most of the other big Mods, and most forums are crediting you for passing on a link to your sites alone - you won't see them stealing your work. Those that actively participate aren't the thread here - it's those lurking in the background that you want to get and they laugh themselves silly how we dig into each other instead of trying to live (and work) with one another. I am all for talks - where people talk and compromise that is, not where individuals are attacked by passers by that don't have anything else to contribute but to throw flamables onto the fire...

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Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Seriously, this is not a civil rights issue or an execution.

it is actually - since you are suggesting to suspend my right to say what I think (and others like me) and are guilty of character execution!

You can get away with calling me a leech (though I shared on this forum just the same), calling me a noob (your kind is at home at nearly all the forums these days so we get used to it), ridiculing me for my critique (some people just can't accept that their work isn't loved by everyone) and verbally abuse me ('cause I know you wouldn't do it to my face without ending up on a drip) - but I'd be damned if I let you come along and stand by as you (or anybody else) demand that my freedom to speak my mind is taken away! You need to wake up and smell the roses, friend - you are in the real world here, not in your game where you throw around commands and can get rid of anybody that thinks different or suspend their rights and liberties. Last I checked this was a public forum - I suggest you go and make your own little place where you can have all your friends around you and nobody that thinks differently...

And stop seeing this as a personal vendetta of mine - I don't even know you!

:nope: :nope:

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Originally Posted by Spytrx

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Originally Posted by bigboywooly

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Originally Posted by Spytrx

('cause I know you wouldn't do it to my face without ending up on a drip) !

:nope:

I'd appreciat if you quote me in context:

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Originally Posted by Spytrx

and verbally abuse me ('cause I know you wouldn't do it to my face without ending up on a drip)

sounds completely different now, doesn't it? Course you can stand there and judge, but when it comes to it things are different (I like to see you being called names and being slandered and have annonymous posts made on your web blog threatening to get you off this board) - some are just more open about it... ;)

And overall has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, just a hint that verbal abuse is actually against the rules... Though it proves my point that the real points raised by certain individuals are ignored for the one bit that can be twisted against them. Thank you for that...

:nope: :nope: :huh:

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Originally Posted by Spytrx

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Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Violence is not the answer Spytrx. Why threaten it in response to verbal abuse? I have been called dreadful names but not hit people for it. You start typing things like that, people will see you as a thug with a keyboard, then your points of view will lose all cred.

I said that these people that use the kind of language wouldn't dare do it if they were to discuss these things face to face with me. I meant that people feel save behind their screen and just dig into people because they feel safe

oops:-? :cry:

Now I am really afreid man...

I even think I would not be able to sleep....:dead: :roll:

But I guess I'm safe that I am behind the screen ...:hmm: :shifty:

You know something, some times I wishe I was closer to some of the guys
we meet over the net, just to get some good old fashion fight and clarify
some ideas...:arrgh!:

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Originally Posted by Ducimus

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Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

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Exactly, a simple statment asking that permission be granted to tool around with anothers creation.

Just to clarify, some example "permission Satements:

Example 1:

Quote:

Permissions:
"You may use any porition of this mod, provided you cite your source and credit the orginal work"

Example 2:

Quote:

Permissions:
"You may NOT use any porition of this mod, without my expressed permission"

Above and beyond some other posts here, it simply boils down to the honor system. Although we all know some do not honor the honor system, these are the folks that have to live with themselves in the end. In essence, I do not see a way to police this at all. One must understand that the mods are created for all to use. The modders created them in good faith that these will be used free of charge as posted (freeware). This person must know that the mods will be tweeked and edited to the users liking. So, if the new mod is put up as someone elses personal work and it is not, then this person, when proved lifting a mod, becomes suspect to all his dealings thereafter. Again, if there is a problem, the two involved should work it out via email or PM.

Well, if you want to boil the fat away, i dont know how you can realistically expect to enforce any set of rules. If anything what i suggested is much easier to enforce then the holy handgrenade suggestion. Seriously , Did thoust ask? Did thout send an email, did thoust wait 90 days? etc etc etc etc.

But your right, no matter what system his hodged podged out of this, it will always boil down to the honor system.

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Again, if there is a problem, the two involved should work it out via email or PM.

If thats the case, why is this thread here? Seems to me its orginated from a private matter, and is just chasing its own tail. Regardless if some rules or "ethics" come out of this to be imposed, i honestly dont expect anything around here to change one much, if at all. How many real incidents have existed on subim? Im only aware of 3. Its not like making some arbitary rules is going to change anything.

I know one thing, if i have to constantly worry about "intellecutal copyright" issues, like some mod gestapo is looking over my shoulder, ill quit. Its just not worth the headache or drama.

OK ladies and gentlemen, I have 8 pages of thread basically going no place and fast....I have read the thread over and a central theme is making itself present. It looks like this theme has gone on for years. This theme looks to contain less than a handful of people who wish to air out past indifferences. The people know who I'm talking about. I do not believe these indifferences will be cleared up in this thread nor any to follow.

Basically, these created mods are set up as freeware. The copywrite is implied but not enforcable. It can not be enforced as far as I can see, this includes enforcable by local, state or international law. All that is asked is anyone swiping all or bits and pieces need to recognize the originator. For those that do, excellent and a fine upstanding member of modding community. For you will gain respect from the modders and the community in general. For those that do not, can live with themselve knowing they are only kidding themselves and probably do with other things in their lives. For those that look to uphold an ethic, bear in mind some will swipe your creations and put it out there like it is their own. It is just the nature of the beast.

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Originally Posted by Ducimus

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Again, if there is a problem, the two involved should work it out via email or PM.

And to this from Ducimus who I hold in high regard and happen to agree with him close this thread. It is looking to be a personal matter as I stated as a central theme in the thread.

Please all read my post prior to this.