A plane crashed in Syria shot down by a Turkish aircraft. This is something both sides agree about.

The rest, like all things in war, depends on who you listen to. A bit like MH17, really. :hmmm:

Well Putin and Erdogan may meet today.

Russia might align itself with the Kurds, as the only force in Syria that can take on Daesh! That would also entail supplying weapons and ammunition.
That should go over real well in Turkey,lol

http://www.russia-direct.org/analysi...together-syria

looks like turks are moving ATACMS into range and are ramping up the rhetoric

Around 25% of the Turkish military is now on the border with Syria, some 1000 vehicles, including Leopard 2A4s.

http://defence-blog.com/wp-content/u...RyWcAEfHAB.png
(yes, I know these aren't Leopard 2s)

"Both are lying."

My guts feeling tells me the Turks set up an ambush almost. If you look at the map, you see that the window of opporutnity where they cou,d have shot at a Russian plane over Turkish soil, is incredibly, almost hilariously small. And Erdoghan has a reputation - and by past acts of him by now also the experience - to stage forged events in the air and to provoke something that would not have happened without him wanting it to happen. Russian and Turkish interests over Syria are quite different. Russia is not the West'S ally. But Turkey is not the Wests ally either. Forget that NATO membership, that's just a too hot iron as if anyone would want to touch it - plenty of daydreaming still going on. Turkey betrays the West, that simple it is, and since a long time already, since Erdoghan came to power.

Turkey or Russia need to back off a bit with the rhetoric and also the blatant military showboating before it gets out of hand. Those tanks will look like a provocative act to Putin and he will counter those tanks with military hardware of his own.
Putin is not the kind of man to back down to anyone so its up to Erdogan to make the first move, If he doesn't the Russian bear will be having a slap up dinner and on the menu will be Turkey.

If that happens you'll most likely have to add NATO to the menu as well which is probably too large a feast for any mere mortal considering a specific mutual mending of relationships over far more important differences of opinion.

The facts are still, to a certain extent, murky.

There is also a controversy over the 5 minutes of radio warning.

The Turks broadcast warnings over the emergency "guard" channel. Several other ACs in the area heard it and a recording can be found on the net.

Problem is that for a technical reason, the radios on the Russian SU-24s are apparently unable to monitor this "Guard" channel.

In mid-october, a Russian military delegation went to Turkey and a special channel for such warning calls was agreed upon. This is apparently the same procedure agreed to between the U.S. and Russia.

Turkey is also claiming it made the warnings on this "special channel" and that recordings of it exist, but none have been released so far.

So the question still stands, did the Turks really warn the Russian planes? The Russians claim it was an ambush, but it just could as easily be a combination of incompetence and inflexible ROEs on the part of Turkey.

Apparently, a Russian plane has also entered Israeli air space, but the situation was resolved peacefully.

This is what Israel's defence minister said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...returned-syria

That last part sounds like a shot directed at Turkey. :ping:

In case of Turkey there were two lines they could have use:
- direct line to the Center of C2 of National Defense (the fancy one with big screens and all the operator stations) from Turkish MoD (not sure which specific center).
- direct Russia-US line, per Russia-US agreement US handles all the Western Coalition stuff and deconflicts it with us.

Putin "Turkey shot down Russian plane to protect Daesh oil supplies."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34970121


Yes, and a Ukrainian Frogfoot on re-entry shot down MH17.

And the same was said by Danish and Swedish commentators. Not referring to what Russia claim, but what they said by own words

Something about trucks with oil, Turkish drivers, bombed by Russians a.s.o

And this could be a reason as many, but why only shot down one plane if protecting Daesh oil supplies ? From what I understand these "convoy of oil" is bombed almost daily.

Markus

Admittedly Putins claim is a bit more likely than Frogfoots from space, but after the debacle that was the response to the downing of MH17 I trust word from the Kremlin as much as I do from Ankara. As Skybird put it, they both lie.

Then again, they are politicians... :03:

Agree If Mr Putin have these claims then he should provide the rest of the world with 100 % solid evidence and not some loose accusation.

Markus