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-   -   Obama supports "Ground Zero Mosque" (of course he does) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=173688)

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1469646)
Lower Manhattan isn't some holy sanctified ground either. Has anyone actually been there? It's filthy, grungy, dirty water hot dogs sold by a swarthy vaguely middle eastern guy, street vendors hawking Twin Towers garbage, plain ol' New York City. There's fast food joints, sushi restaurants, bodegas and crap just like any other downtown. I have no idea why people are trying to turn this into some kind of holy shrine. Build the damn mosque already, just like the million others in NYC.

I don't know bud. I was in lower Manhattan March 28th. I just buried my father in Flushing Cemetery Flushing NY. It was clean and a cop on every corner. There was no horn honking every two seconds. My kids even commented on the cleanliness. Sure, build the mosque but do it somewhere else. Try Harlem! That neighborhood could use a boost.

Your funny...."a swarthy vaguely middle eastern guy"...not stereotyping are ya? :doh:

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1469629)
In holland or germany, some years ago, a church gave property to a muslim community, right on the other side of the street, directly opposite to the church. The mosque was build. The Muslims then complained and said the church had to got, it would be an offence to Islam and a discmrination of devout muslims if they go to the mosque and mist watch the chruch while on their way.

A German brothel during the football championship four years ago had an advertising that showed all international flags and a football. First they got intimidating letters. Wheh that did not work, several men described as being looking arabic, started to visit them and intimidating, bullying and threatening girls and guests and the owner, demanding that the Saudi flag had to be removed . the police recommended to comply - in order to not provokate. That there was a serious breaching of he law and threats of violence going on, was totally ignored.

I do not take it for granted that your idea would work, warhawk. Things are worse in Europe, but in america you will be in some years where we already have been some years ago then. In america islam sees that advancing slowly and on the lath of smallest resistence is the best way to spread islam and lulling the natives. :) that's why things are a bit different in ameica and europe. But the relaxed impression in merica, is misleading. the nature of the group pushing the mosque at GZ-project should ring alarm bells. The project is a wanted, cooly calculated confrontation, nothing else.

And that is my point Skybird. If we or anyone is to tolerate this mosque in this very spot then the Muslims should very well tolerate a strip joint across the street. If they wish to enjoy the protection of the Constitution in this matter the folks across the street who want to swing a butt or two would also like that advantage.

Skybird 08-17-10 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1469948)
And that is my point Skybird. If we or anyone is to tolerate this mosque in this very spot then the Muslims should very well tolerate a strip joint across the street. If they wish to enjoy the protection of the Constitution in this matter the folks across the street who want to swing a butt or two would also like that advantage.
what they should and what they would, are two very different things since 50 years now.

We have had many guest workers in ngermany, from many nations, and those who stayed, almost all of them integrated well and played by the rules.

Just not the Muslim groups.

Also note that the mosque at GZ has been planned as a wanted and intentional provocation from beginning on. I think I have linked that often enough now, and wasn't it you also setting up that NJP article, mentioning the same names and their radical background?

In these 50 years of - intended - reciprocal gamble, we have given them and given them and given them, all in good faith, and advanced trust. We got nothing back on equal terms. not in our countries, and not in theirs.

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 08:20 AM
Quote:
I think I have linked that often enough now, and wasn't it you also setting up that NJP article, mentioning the same names and their radical background.
No it was not me. I do not care about the radical backgrounds, etc. The mosque in itself at this very location is enough to make me realize this is planned in one form or another. I truly do not feel this is coincidence. I did however mention that a mosque can be built in NY but just find a different less controversial spot. It is really simple. If this building is already drawing fire even before the first brick is layed imagine how it will be when the work does commence.

Tribesman 08-17-10 08:27 AM
Quote:
If we or anyone is to tolerate this mosque in this very spot then the Muslims should very well tolerate a strip joint across the street. If they wish to enjoy the protection of the Constitution in this matter the folks across the street who want to swing a butt or two would also like that advantage.
Have they objected to the strip joint round the corner?
After all if strippers, pubs and meat markets(not the strip club kind) are next door, across the street, round the corner and behind the existing mosque and they havn't objected then what is the basis for you saying they won't tolerate it?

Quote:
Sure, build the mosque but do it somewhere else. Try Harlem! That neighborhood could use a boost.
Are you saying the Harlem mosque isn't big enough and needs to be bigger or that Harlem just needs another mosque.
But anyway Harlem is already in the process of gentrification so does it need an additional boost from downtown property developers?

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman (Post 1469996)
Have they objected to the strip joint round the corner?
After all if strippers, pubs and meat markets(not the strip club kind) are next door, across the street, round the corner and behind the existing mosque and they havn't objected then what is the basis for you saying they won't tolerate it?


Are you saying the Harlem mosque isn't big enough and needs to be bigger or that Harlem just needs another mosque.
But anyway Harlem is already in the process of gentrification so does it need an additional boost from downtown property developers?
Read Skybirds posts on mosques and strip joints. As far as Harlem...you bet it could use a boost. I'm sure from where your sitting you can see how Harlem is looking today. :hmmm:

It is a simple truth that this mosque at this particular location is creating hostilities. That in itself should be enough for anyone to realize something is very wrong with this picture. It seems to be very orchestrated. If the Muslims want to worship in peace...they will not find it at this particular site. Already there are issues and the first bachhoe has not even arrived on site. Just as hate crimes at Jewish Synagouges still happen today crimes of hate will be demonstrated at this mosque for a long time to come.

tater 08-17-10 09:03 AM
I think the 1st Amendment protects the Mosque from government sanction based on the fact it is a mosque. Don't like it, repeal the 1st.

That said, there were plenty of way they could have avoided this without running afoul the 1st, and they chose not to. Zoning. Historical buildings, etc.

Bloomberg said that as long as the Mosque is not radical, he sees no problem. That's wrong-headed. Aside form the fact that the guy building it is already associated with radical muslims, this could always change—then what?

It's tough, it really is, because we are at war with a group of people who are themselves fighting a religious war against us, and our own laws disallow singling them out based on their misogynistic, regressive, violent religion—not to mention the radical versions of said religion (I was talking about Islam at large ;) ).

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 09:12 AM
Quote:
It's tough, it really is, because we are at war with a group of people who are themselves fighting a religious war against us, and our own laws disallow singling them out based on their misogynistic, regressive, violent religion—not to mention the radical versions of said religion (I was talking about Islam at large ;) ).
This they know and are using this site as pawn. I think this is fairly easy to see.

Tribesman 08-17-10 09:14 AM
Quote:
Read Skybirds posts on mosques and strip joints.
Since Sky is bit of a conspiracy nut his claims don't merit much worth in terms of validity. Ever since his rant about blacks and muslims ruining the world cup his posts have near to zero validity.

So read my post, has the strip joint down there been closed or objected to by the current mosque?

Quote:
I'm sure from where your sitting you can see how Harlem is looking today
Good point, its several weeks since I was in NY:har::har::har::har:

Quote:
It is a simple truth that this mosque at this particular location is creating hostilities.
In that location?
Isn't it funny that Manhatten is the place where the majority of people surveyed have no objection to the mosque.:hmmm:
So the objections and hostility comes from sensationalist crap like in this topic and the other one about it being built at ground zero and being built
on the graves which is utter bull.
Quote:
If the Muslims want to worship in peace...they will not find it at this particular site.
Have there been any attacks on the congrgation or building in the year it hads been there?
Should planning permission be denied because in the future perhaps some bigot will go crazy?

Quote:
Already there are issues and the first bachhoe has not even arrived on site.
When they extended the existing mosque by taking down the walls between it and the neighbouring building when they got that lease too were there issues?

Quote:
Just as hate crimes at Jewish Synagouges still happen today crimes of hate will be demonstrated at this mosque for a long time to come.
So are you suggesting that synagouges should be banned?
After all if you are comparing crazy bigots doing hate crimes with crazy bigots doing hate crimes in relation to applications for building permits you must be trying to say something.

Sailor Steve 08-17-10 09:42 AM
Geez, Tribesman!

One time I'm complaining that you contribute nothing to a thread but what I see as an attack, and now you turn around and write one of the most reasoned, well-thought-out posts on this thread!

Be more consistent, so I can decide whether to love you or hate you!
:rotfl2:

Tribesman 08-17-10 10:10 AM
Quote:
Be more consistent, so I can decide whether to love you or hate you!
Hold on, you sound like my wife

Aramike 08-17-10 10:15 AM
Quote:
But the question was about the Tenth Amendment and its impact on this particular freedom. The Muslims paid the fees, and got the permit. Now you show me where the Constitution gives you the right to stop it.
The Constitution doesn't allow for the charging of permit fees in the first place (although that's not unConstitutional). Neither does it mention anything about refunding said fees and revoking said permit.

As I have been saying, the question is not Constitutional.
Quote:
Ninth Amendment. James Madison specifically wanted that one to protect any right that he forgot to list in the first Ten. People have a right to do anything they want, as long as they don't break the law or harm other people's right to do the same. If McDonalds can build a building there then so can the Muslims. Equal protection under the law, it's called.
That's not correct. Euclidean zoning and emminent domain has been ruled Constitutional time and time again.

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 10:23 AM
Quote:
So are you suggesting that synagouges should be banned?
After all if you are comparing crazy bigots doing hate crimes with crazy bigots doing hate crimes in relation to applications for building permits you must be trying to say something.
No, you are suggesting that. No were did I suggest to ban anything. I suggested this is not the best place to put a mosque. Find another less hostile environment in NY city. Please read my post in the beginning of this thread. Your last sentence makes no sense but for some reason Sailor Steve thinks it is great. As you run blindly into the night... if this was such a cut and dry deal why the controversy? Why is the White House involved? Why has Harry Reid trump Obama on this? Say what you like....the issue still remains....this will be an issue now and long after it is built. Then again you read that in the thread that was started about a week ago where I stated this will be an issue for a long time to come. Yes? :hmmm:

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/08/16...-would-be.html

Tribesman 08-17-10 10:42 AM
Quote:
No, you are suggesting that.
If you are suggesting that a religious building would cause issues and should not be built because it may be attacked by bigots then hold up examples of bigots attacking religious buildings then you are saying religious buildings must not be built because of bigots.

Quote:
No were did I suggest to ban anything.
So you are in fact saying the existing mosque can be redeveloped as a bigger mosque in its current location in Manhatten then.

Quote:
Say what you like....the issue still remains....this will be an issue now and long after it is built.
Yeah like the Shinto shrine with the peace bell.

AVGWarhawk 08-17-10 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman (Post 1470130)
If you are suggesting that a religious building would cause issues and should not be built because it may be attacked by bigots then hold up examples of bigots attacking religious buildings then you are saying religious buildings must not be built because of bigots.


So you are in fact saying the existing mosque can be redeveloped as a bigger mosque in its current location in Manhatten then.


Yeah like the Shinto shrine with the peace bell.
No, I believe that it would probably be in the best interest of those wanting to build this mosque at this particular site think about finding a different location. (I'm not alone on this nor is Obama going to comment on the wisdom of building at such a site...because there is none) I have always stated this building will be an issue for a long time to come. Second, nowhere did I say buildings should not be built because bigots. I posted that certain buildings will be attacked in hate crime activities and this mosque will probably suffer the same hate crime activity. Probably more so. Under the law they can build. I however can not support that mosque at this location. I do not care if it pre-existed. It is simply insensative. It has created controversy with the highest in the land.

So what are you suggesting? Insensativity does not play a roll here? Shove political correctness and just build?


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