SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)

- General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)

- - The proposed health care bill thread (merged) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=153798)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo (Post 1135616)

I read somewhere, Rassmussen perhaps, that the nation is becoming more conservative. The legacy and down fall of a one term president? Or the wishes of a torn nation?

This is nothing new, really. We are a conservative nation. There's a reason liberals must disguise their liberalism in order to achieve power.

I have been cautioned not to be conservative in my views. So as much as I would like to respond I cannot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo (Post 1135645)

I have been cautioned not to be conservative in my views. So as much as I would like to respond I cannot.

Say wha???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike (Post 1135642)

The idea that government always equals bad or always equals good is unrealistic and unproductive.

I'll leave your view regarding excise taxes alone. I gave you my own opinion on it. We disagree to an extent on it.

I don't believe that government is always bad. But it does have it's limitations. When it tries to break out of those limitations and intends itself to become too large and intertwined in people's lives at the expense of personal liberty, I do see it as bad. Not going to pretend it's good just to get along. I agree with your assessment above on this issue. It's not always good or bad. But these days, it's getting much more difficult to find any good IMO. The current government is the worst, most incompetent I've seen in my lifetime. And it's only been in existence for 7 months.

Quote:

I don't believe that government is always bad. But it does have it's limitations. When it tries to break out of those limitations and intends itself to become too large and intertwined in people's lives at the expense of personal liberty, I do see it as bad.

I agree with you completely on this. The problems arise when the specifics of what personal liberties people are entitled to are discussed.

That is in fact the reason that I identify myself as an independent rather than a conservative. Indeed, most of my views are conservative. However, I refuse to back myself into that corner.

A great example of this occurred earlier in this thread. A poster was trying to equivocate nationalized healthcare with national energy regulations. Personally, I have different opinions on each issue, and don't believe that a certain viewpoint on any one issue justifies a viewpoint on the other. In other words, if I were to believe that healthcare should be more regulated (although that's not my belief) I am not a hypocrite to believe that energy industries should be less regulated.

In my opinion, far too many people simply take their party's line on what to think, rather than examining the issues for themselves. I'm not saying that you do, Sea Demon ... just saying.

[/rant]

It's the poor Canadians I feel sorry for. Because their socialized healthcare system is so bad, they currently all come here to the US when they need serious health care. Once Obama has destroyed our system, where will they go?

A smart entrepreneur in the medical field should now set up a state of the art medical facility in the Bahamas. Once Obama's system for making the hard working Americans pay for the lazy and the stupid is in place, then the quality of healthcare in this country will drop significantly, and the wait time for actually getting to see a doctor will increase massively.

Those of us who have worked hard and paid ever increasing taxes will now need to leave the country in order to get the level of healthcare we currently enjoy. That's ok though because all the quality Doctors will also have left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Your personal healthcare is not a common use item, as tens of millions don't need a government option. You are infringing on mine and many other citizen's liberties and have no business waving an American flag on July 4th celebrating independance from a tyrranical British government. You obviously don't understand or respect the liberty of the common person as you think you are owed healthcare. Go to work and pay for it yourself.

You can insult my patriotism all you like, but I'll leave you with this: wail about it all you want, but it's going to happen. Thank goodness clear thinking people are in charge. I'm through debating with you when you start getting personal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044 (Post 1135666)

It's the poor Canadians I feel sorry for. Because their socialized healthcare system is so bad, they currently all come here to the US when they need serious health care.

You believe that? Here's a scientific study that debunks that argument: http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...t/full/21/3/19

And here's a whole page of Canadians who disagree with you: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/co...e_why_canadas/

Aaaaand, I'm done. Have fun with the rest of your debate :)

Cite all the meaningless studies you want. I lived in the UK for a long time and experienced the kind of socialized healthcase that you think will be wonderful here.

The only people who actually want this kind of healthcare are those who haven't experienced it. Maybe when you lose someone close to you because they couldn't get the care they needed fast enough you'll get it....but even then I don't think you'll get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike (Post 1135582)

First off, please try to take this response in the context that, while I am in favor of nationalized healthcare, I think Obama's plan is idiotic.

You raise a valid point, but I think you're missing the middle ground. Indeed, under any nationalized plan the taxes of those covered would also be used to fund healthcare. However, by reducing the overall cost of healthcare and its artificial inflation caused by the current Patient's Bill of Rights, your insurance's company's costs (and, theoretically your costs) should be reduced substantially. Ultimately, you should see a wash under a well-formulated plan.

But that wash goes only wallet-deep. The advantages of a healthy workforce and assuring access to what I believe is a basic human right are incredible. For one, this would be true economic stimulus. You'd instantly raise the buying power of thousands and thousands of people who would otherwise find themselves ruined due to a massive medical problem propping up while being underinsured. Next, states will save BILLIONS in costs for healthcare plans for those at or near the poverty line, helping to offset the costs. Finally, providers will save billions in unpaid invoices - the costs of which are passed upon to the consumer, or the insurance companies as a proxy.

Again, those items are why I'm in support of a national plan. But I am NOT in support of Obama's iteration of one. Ideally, the purpose would be to lower healthcare costs to an acceptable level that the average Joe would be able to just go out and buy superior care if necessary, but will not be left hanging if unable to purchase it. ObamaCare does none of that.

I will touch on your last point only, Obama is putting the cart before the horse IMO. Bush attempted some form of tort reform and going after those who attempt frivilous lawsuits against hospitals and doctors. Want to bring down costs? Control the ambulance chasing lawyers who look to sue the hospital janitor right up to the CEO of every drug company known to man. Malpractice insurance is completely through the roof. Everyone jumps up and down about now we are already paying for the uninsured. Great, got it and have accepted it for over 30 years. This issue is only a very small chuck of why healthcare cost are very high. Dumping another 51 million (of which I'm not sure how many are non-contributing aliens) will not reduce healthcare costs. This iss just an additional 51 million who potentially will draw a frivilous lawsuit and overburden not only the ER but the court systems as well.

I think Obama healthcare plan is idiotic. Do I think nationalized healthcare is a good idea? Sure. However, if I'm paying for a plan outside of Obamacare than I should have the option to opt out of paying into Obamacare. Unfortunate like millions of others we are being forced to pay. In short, tough sh!t and chew a little harder is what we are being told.

Obama himself said he wouldn't use "Obamacare" if anyone in his family was seriously ill. If it isn't good enough for Obama (and the rest of the freeloading politicians) than it sure as hell isn't good enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSatyr (Post 1135799)

Everyone on Capitol Hill can and will opt out of Obamacare. This has already been established. Capitol Hill will retain the top most insurance and care offered. Welcome to the the two tier system. If they want this program then Capitol Hill should be first in line to sign up for it. DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH WAITING ON THAT TO HAPPEN.:-?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSatyr (Post 1135799)

Everyone on capitol hill will have their own health care plans.

You dont really expect them to live with the consiquences of their actions do you?

Ive heard it said that this bill is not really about healthcare at all rather its more about gaining greater power and control over the 'stupid' citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSatyr (Post 1135799)

Link?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo (Post 1135645)

I have been cautioned not to be conservative in my views. So as much as I would like to respond I cannot.

Not accurate. Actually you were warned not to be rude, troll, and spam the forums with the same political agenda too frequently.

Part of the reasons doctors get paid a lot of money is because they are expected to be perfect and carry massive liability insurance because they are not. It is also emotionally taxing with long hours. It's not a life I would want.

Buddahaid