One thing that is IMO of interest to note, is the fact that the British people turned their back on him after the war when he was up for re-election :hmm:

The only man though IMO that was capable of leading the people in a coalition during the war :yep:

Yes, but my reply was to the post by CaptainHaplo about uboats and fleet subs. Not that I mind discussing this with you though!

I understand your point about the locks, and you could be right too. But given the difference in industrial capacity I don't think there was any way Japan could have beaten the US once you were fully committed to fight this war. And pearl harbour took care of that part.

Let me give you another example, the winter war in Finland 39-40. The Soviets made a lot off misstakes in this war and Finland did alot right. The end result was still a loss for Finland because of the enourmous difference in military power. I am not suggesting that the differences between the major powers in WWII was that large. But still large enough to allow for many misstakes by the allies, and many sane and good decisions by the axis, without changing the end result in anything but time and lives spent.

In hindsight one could say that the large production of strategic bombers and the bombing raids they performed were allied misstakes. They did not achieve either of their objectives, to break the german will to fight (brittain should have known from personal experience that this wouldn't work) and destoy germanys industrial capacity (instead production steadily increased over the years because of higher degree of mobilisation). But the war was won anyway, so who cares?

I kept waiting for someone to bring this up and nobody has.

Sure the Germans failed in logistics and stratagy but their biggest failure and it was fatal was in INTELLIGENCE and COUNTER -INTELLIGENCE. I don't have the time to dig through all my references many of Hitlers costlist decisions were based on faulty or inaccurate intellegence. Not to mention the failure of counter intelligence to uncover spies like Soviet spy Richard Sorge.

Japan had a great prewar espionage ring but had little effect once the war started.

Penelope_ Gray said just remember that "hero" was the one who failed to warn the USA what the Japanese were about to do to Pearl Harbour.

Harry Hopkins (Roosevelt's closet advisor) in his book suggests that Churchill did tell Roosevelt about Pearl Harbor before it happened. There is no way that he couldn't. It would have destroyed all of his credibility if FDR found out later that WSC knew in advance. Churchill knew because Stalin had told him, based on Richard Sorge's penetration of the Imperial Japanese Cabinet. Sorge didn't give a date but said it would happen, thereby allowing the Russians to transfer 190 divisions from the Manchurian border to Stalingrad. Bletchley Park was also breaking the Japanese codes and British Naval Intelligence presumably could forecast that it would likely happen at dawn on Sunday. BNI told the PM.

Hopkins says that the phone call from Churchill came in while FDR was eating breakfast on Friday (5th). They talked for a couple of minutes, and then FDR asked HLH to leave the room; - a most unusual request. After the call finished, HLH went back into the room, but FDR said nothing and did not finish breakfast. It was only a couple of days later that HLH realized what must have been said. FWIW.

Going back to the original question I think what's interesting is that you could make an even stronger arguement for U-Boats costing Germany the previous conflict: World War One.

It was a combination of the resumption of unrestricted U-Boat warfare by the Germans and the Zimmerman Telegram which sought an German alliance with Mexico that finally brought about the US declaration of war on Imperial Germany in 1917. Fresh US troops then joined the Allied cause which had just seen Russia exit it when they signed a peace treaty with the Germans at Brest-Litovsk. Although the US Army wasn't the juggernaut in 1918 that it would be in 1944, it's timely intervention did help blunt Lundendorff's final offensive towards Paris on the Western Front and participated in the Allied counter-offensive that eventually led to the internal collpase of Germany.

So, did U-boats cost Germany two World Wars? :hmm:

oooooooo!
 

You HAVE to look that one up and get back to us! And cite sources so we can read about it. That is a remarkable insight.:up:

Interesting thought
 

But the Lusitania was WAY before the Zimmerman Telegram. I think we have to give the U-Boats a pass on WWI. Good thought and it's taught that way in lots of schools. But my study of WWI newspapers convinces me that the Zimmerman Telegram stands alone as the reason we entered the war. Invasion was much more persuasive than a few merchants torpedoed here and there.

I think it was the Politicians that lost the war
 

U-Boats lost the war - HA HA HA HA HA.
That is a good start for debate - there really is not one here however.
Hitler was an idiot. That is what lost the war for the Nazis. The country initially blinded by easy and quick successes lost in the long term to a mad man and his ideas of granduer.
U-Boats for being a poor design proved how crappy the Allies were in tactics and ship design (true arguement as the Brits feared the U-Boat menace so much they actually had ASDIC at war entry - the Germans knew it too. )
The German armed forces were ill equiped to wage a war (look at the TO&E of Russia and France then compare it with the Nazies) - Tactics won the early battles. Battle of Britian???? Lost because the Luftwaffe had a crappy bomber abd no drop tanks for the Messerschmidt 109.
Compare Japan with USA and a more even Naval Match Up, A more even Army match up - but tactical failure (based yes on good intelligence) won some crucial victories.
Cool Debate by the way - nice to chat about stuff like this!

Hitler as a puller of the crowd he was a genius. But very rarely did he take his generals advice. They could of taken Moscow but bad decisions by hitler started the downfall. Then he had his fatso right hand man Goring who with his lufwaffe (SP) could of helped the Uboats more than they did. Soon as Goring lost the Battle of Britain Hitler should of had him sent to the front line! Nothing but a thorn in his side who turned on him in the end. They were all a bunch of Nazi Rogues:yep:

Very well I am going through my collection as we speak on the faulty german intelligence, so I will start with the japanese.

1) Japanese Espinage Network

The Japanese had a wide spread network of spies spread out with the help of an insider within spanish embassies throughout allied countries. Noted large spy ring on the west coast disrupted due to internment.
Source: Mathews, Tony (1994) "Shadow Dancing."

2) Japanese Actions on the West Coast
This book will make you think twice about Japanese Internment. This book using declassfied goverment documents debunks many myths.

Myths
1) There was never a case of Japanese American espionage proven.

False. There were never any charges. There was plenty of proof from coded messages that were decoded using MAGIC, The same code that was broken for midway, pearl harbor..ect.

source: (*** a must read) Lowman, David (2000) "Magic"

Awesome! Thank you!
 

The British/American/German angle is covered in large part by "A Man Called Intrepid", by Sir William Stephenson, who although engaging in self-mythology like Al Gore's "I invented the Internet" takes credit for the beginning of IBM, knocking Lothar von Richthoven out of WWI and other exaggerations of his own role, the background info is generally dependable. His relating of the early relationships between Churchill and Roosevelt are particularly crucial to understanding the motivation of the US in the war.

But I can't wait to dive into the sources you quote to fill a large hole in what I know about Japanese espionage. Wooooo Hooooo!

What surprises me is the legs this topic has showed. I expected that everybody would say "Rockin is full of bullschnitzel. He should quit drinking" and a couple of people would post drop dead messages. I sure didn't expect a great discussion where I would learn as much as I have. I guess I should have expected that caring enough about a tough game like Silent Hunter only comes from caring about the real events.:rock:

Well, we all do think this but we like you anyway. :D

Not the U-Boats but maybe Bismark and Tirpitz
 

The Germans could and would never have a Navy that would deal with the Royal Navy and squandered valuable resources on something to carry the swastika to the oceans bottom. Had they not built the BB's and invested the efforts in the U-Boat Arm it is feasible (along with a credible long range Naval Aviation threat) that the Nazies for a time could have isolated the UK. The Birts thiought this was feasible as they were already making plans for a Governmnt in Exile in Canada. The Surface component was not ever capable of catch the Brits as it was not feasible in the time it would take to:
1. Play catch up
2. Train the sailors

Japanese Sabotuers?
I glowing example of one was the Dentist in Honolulu that provided prestrike Intel for the IJN then suppossedly left for Japan.

He was re-elected in the elections of early 1950's

That's true, but he lost to Attlee in the 45 and 50 elections:

http://www.ukpolitical.info/1945.htm