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August 08-09-07 12:29 AM

3 million, 20 million, does it really matter?

Heibges 08-09-07 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradclark1
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Originally Posted by August
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Originally Posted by bradclark1
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Originally Posted by August
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Originally Posted by Skybird
Letum is right in so far that the world in the 20th century would have been a more peaceful and less cruel place if only Hitler and Stalin and MaoTseTung wouldn't have popped up (beside a number of others) and decided to play foul.

I wonder if they had never existed whether others would just have taken their place.

MaoTseTung - Zhu De
Stalin - Lenin
Hitler - Nobody. Without him Nazi Germany wouldn't have been.

Hitler didn't create the nazi party though.

No he didn't but he made it into as we know it. He made it into the Third Reich. The Nazi party was whatever Hitler said it was once he joined them and became leader. Who else could have drawn and held together that psychotic gang of misfits?

Ernst Roehm?

Heibges 08-09-07 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
3 million, 20 million, does it really matter?

I have to agree, Lenin and Stalin were alike in that they were willing to use whatever means to achieve their aims.

The top Bosheviks were basically all a bunch of murderers no matter how they might like to posture themselves.

Who knows what further madness Lenin would have embarked upon, had he lived.

P_Funk 08-09-07 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
3 million, 20 million, does it really matter?

Weren't we just talking about the distinctions in civilian casualties compared between the two powers in WW2 and how one was more eveil for it?

I think numbers do matter.:p

w-subcommander 08-09-07 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk
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Originally Posted by w-subcommander
There is 3 kind of Lie:lie, BIG LIE, and statistics.

Isn't that Twain?

edit. sorry it was Disraeli, popularized by Twain.

Twain or Disraeli or Einstein
who was the first? I think it doesnt matter. All guys were great.

P_Funk 08-09-07 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w-subcommander
Twain or Disraeli or Einstein
who was the first? I think it doesnt matter. All guys were great.

:up:

Cheers

August 08-09-07 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk
Quote:

Originally Posted by August
3 million, 20 million, does it really matter?

Weren't we just talking about the distinctions in civilian casualties compared between the two powers in WW2 and how one was more eveil for it?

I think numbers do matter.:p

Not when its ones own people and in that scale it doesn't.

Reaves 08-09-07 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk
Quote:

Originally Posted by August
3 million, 20 million, does it really matter?

Weren't we just talking about the distinctions in civilian casualties compared between the two powers in WW2 and how one was more eveil for it?

I think numbers do matter.:p

Not when its ones own people and in that scale it doesn't.

:yep:

There is no excuse for genocide.

joea 08-09-07 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w-subcommander
Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk
Quote:

Originally Posted by w-subcommander
There is 3 kind of Lie:lie, BIG LIE, and statistics.

Isn't that Twain?

edit. sorry it was Disraeli, popularized by Twain.

Twain or Disraeli or Einstein
who was the first? I think it doesnt matter. All guys were great.

Twain also said something like "I support my country always, and my government when it deserves it."

P_Funk 08-09-07 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea
Twain also said something like "I support my country always, and my government when it deserves it."

That is a perfect quote for our times... and pretty much every other time before it.

bradclark1 08-09-07 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heibges
Ernst Roehm?

He wasn't primary leader material. He was a follower with his own idea's who just wanted to be head of military with the SA leading. He was also a known homosexual which was kept more or less secret until he became a liability. His execution was for political purposes because the army hated Roehm and Hitler needed the army.

w-subcommander 08-09-07 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk
Quote:

Originally Posted by joea
Twain also said something like "I support my country always, and my government when it deserves it."

That is a perfect quote for our times... and pretty much every other time before it.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Its one of my favorites.
But I think I have dual personality. I support 2 countries always and watching for 2 goverments 24/7....

U-96 12-27-07 08:23 AM

I'm amazed by how many people are able to casually justify the Atomic bomb as just another tool in the big U.S. toolbox. And how 'necessary' it was. Maybe this is the way Americans try to cope with the guilt. But to me it's the 'Ceaser can do no wrong' syndrom at play here. If Germany dropped a nuke on Russia, I doubt anyone would praise them.

But since it's the U.S. who did it, it's excuseable according to alot of the supporters of this act. But the thing is, The Atomic bomb was neither necessary nor just. The Japanese were brutal people in those days, not just to other people but that doesn't mean they deserved the A-bomb either. Harry Truman knew full well of the destructive power of the A-bomb as well as it's radioactive fallout, still he called for it's use when it was not justified and that makes him a war criminal.

Why was the A-Bomb unnecessary. Let's dissect the arguements favouring the bomb.

'It saved American lives by eliminating the need to land on mainland Japan.' This is highly flawed since the U.S. Navy literally surrounded Japan, Nothing was getting in or out and Japan being an island nation was heavily dependant on imported supplies. Also months of bombing razed Japan back to the stoneage. They literally had nothing left. If Japan didn't surrender they would starve to death. Even if the Japanese military was trying to mobilize men, They had virtually no guns there was nothing to fight back with. And with no more Navy nor Air Force left, they had nothing to fight the blockading U.S. fleet with. 'You send in troops only when you have to' And in this case, troops were not needed.

'The Atomic Bomb forced Japan to surrender, without it they wouldn't have. It infact took TWO bombs to get them to surrender' Japan may be a small country, But it's still alot of land to cover. With the entire country destroyed already with no working telephones or radio equipment, How was the Japanese government supposed inform the victors of their intent to surrender? It took days for any message to get through because conditions forced the old courier system to be used.

'The Japanese were brutal people, Look what they did to the Chinese and American POW's' So? Why do the Japanese civilian population have to pay for the crimes of the Military. Who nuked the U.S. for what they did in Dresden? Did the U.S. nuke Germany for their many attrocities? Why is the choice for nuking people who displayed barbaric behaviour limited to the Japanese?

'It shortened the war considerably' How do you know? Were the Japanese still trying to retake Guadalcanal or Midway? Where they planning Pearl Harbour the sequel? No, The entire country was destroyed, surrounded and starving. That's as defeated an enemy as you'll get short of genocide. The war was over by that time, It just wasn't FORMALLY over yet.

What happend here is that the Americans managed to put the suffering of the Japanese on their shoulders instead of it being Japan's responsibility. If surrender was indeed not being offered, then they are responsible for the suffering and starvation of their people. However the two bombs now brought untold suffering, the lucky ones were the ones that died in the blast. Radioactive fallout affects alot of people, most of whom don't deserve their ailments. And that's something that will never be washed away. Because now the die is cast, the U.S. broke the ice now with nuclear weapons and angry people can always say 'Well the Americans did it' to justify their nuclear attacks.

But I think worst of all is that Americans seem to wear this event as a badge of honour rather then shame. Hindsight or not, Truman knew of the bomb's capabilities after getting reports from the extensive tests done. And I doubt Truman was oblivious to the victorious situation in the Pacific. Despite these he ordered the bomb anyways and the blood is one his hands.

Was the U.S's back against a wall? Were the Japanese close to setting foot on mainland U.S.A? Where they short of weapons and ammo? Where they suffering defeat? No, they were quite the opposite, in the strongest position of the war in the Pacific. Yes the bomb was dropped anyways. Trying to justify this is simply impossible.

Steel_Tomb 12-27-07 09:21 AM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1166/...5986b5e6c1.jpg

Jeez...not this AGAIN, we've gone over this a hundred times and never come to a solid conclusion...

SEARCH is your friend!

Takeda Shingen 12-27-07 09:38 AM

Gah! Zombie thread! Braaaains. Braaaaains!

Seriously, what page did you have to go to in order to dig this one out?


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