I'll stay out of this thread now in case moderation is necessary but last night on my tv was really interesting viewing much of which saddened and surprised me.

I'll end by saying imho NATO is or will soon be finished.

More than ever if the US exits NATO we all need to stick together - united we stand! divided we fall!:salute:

Thinking that you can weather this storm on your own would be very naive and irresponsible. Unless you are fine with being extorted.

Yep. Another Russian objective completed. NATO doine. US out of Europe. Eastern Europe undefendable for many years to come.

The good thing is sooner or later it must dawn everybody in Brussels that stupid green deal economics, overboarding bureaucracy and lets-please-everybody-in-the-world is financially no longer affordable. But that bright conclusion alone does not make the crisis any more survivable.


It should be noted that just about a third of voters on the right and left fringes voted against remaining in NATO in the German parliamentary elections.

Ah, you Aussies just need to sink deep into the ground, get out in our place and be safe again.

Or was it the other way around?!:doh:


See you halfway in the middle, and we chill grill together!

Not a surprise as Trump wanted out of NATO his first term. It seems incredulous but when the rubber hits the road NATO appears to be financed by one country.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with what the NATO Leadership were saying during the 2008 NATO summit and some of the behind the scenes machinations by those who wanted Ukraine in NATO about the time Russia invaded Crimea.

The U.S. was never really in favor of Ukraine Joining NATO, But it seems other members did, and worked behind the scenes to make it happen. You can obfuscate all you want but the speeches, referendums, and joint exercises etc. are a matter of record.

All signs are beginning to indicate it's more a matter of when we pull out of NATO rather than if. And yes, if NATO is dissolved Europeans will be fighting amongst themselves within 15-20 years.
That's only because of the large U.S. economy, as a percentage of GDP Poland contributes more. 4.1%(Poland) vs. 3.3% (U.S.). dollar amounts translate differently. Poland (35 million) U.S. (968 million). And that means the U.S. is contributing almost 2/3 of NATO's annual budget.

Trump pull USA out of NATO-He can't do that singlehanded it has to be a 2/3 majority in the H.o R. before USA can do this

Or is this wrong.

Markus

Maybe next time you could try arguing that she was wearing revealing clothes.:yeah:

I really hope you're wrong about that. Maybe NATO will simply change insofar as England, Germany and perhaps other NATO Countries taking a larger leadership role.

But they won't. The USA charges in with the biggest checkbook. Trump wanted out his first term because many in NATO lost their checkbooks. The world police moniker gets very expensive. Meanwhile the golden city on the hill is getting to be tent city of the homeless.

Zelensky's hard choice, to relinquish his position by overseeing elections for a new Ukraine President.

I can understand your frustrations and I agree everyone should pay their fair share, with regards to NATO obligations. It's been said that if someone is in agreement with you 80 %, then you have a friend. The U.S and Europe have been friends for too long to let that slip away. Europe is grappling with the same Migrant / Invader Issues we in the U.S are dealing with. We are now dealing with these and other Issues and Europe can as well.

Friends help each through difficult times. I'm hopeful Europe and the U.S can do just that.

It is a row between US President Trump, Vice President Vance and Ukrainian President Zelensky which should never have been broadcast live. Nor is this something that has never happened in the past, it's just that it never happened on camera. Not is this the end of NATO which is not going to happen soon, Trump can't just get out of it, but he can blow it up in the sense of withdrawing troops, no longer sharing intel, etc. it's just a feud between two countries not the end of the ... tranquila. And he is not president forever so tranquila. Trump must get rid of Zelenskyy, agreed with Russia in recent days. Putin wants Russian rule in Ukraine, that is one of Putin's requirement to stop this war.