SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Realism mod (discussion)

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)

- COLD WATERS (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=268)

- - Realism mod (discussion) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=231759)

Realsim mod not compatible with latest 1.03 Beta?

Hi. Opted for the latest 1.03 Beta: game crashed when selected single mission: just went to a static picture of the sub, and not responsive to any commands. In short, froze. I deleted the Override folder this mod comes with, and fixed! No more crashes.
Hoping the mod is made compatible asap, as I really like it.

regards,

Nimmo

New version coming today.

That's great PL Harpoon. Thank you.

Nimmo55

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon (Post 2491559)

USETs have longer range (however I couldn't find any data that would prove that so perhaps it is too much) but are also slower than 48s.

Data about torpedoes before 1989 year and USET-80: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000051-000-20-0#020

All what you need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II (Post 2491593)

2) If it really has to do with the Mark 48, it might reflect its surface detection range. If you look at the below site, for the UGST the Russians claim 2.5km detection range against a submarine, but only 1.2km for a surface ship - presumably the surface ship range is less because so much of the ship is out of the water and the increased surface noise so near the surface. From that, we may infer that a torpedo with 4000m acquisition against submarines may plausibly be reduced to roughly 1.6km against a surface ship.
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/ugst/

UGST testing against Russian subs with acoustic coating submarines, but Mk-48 mod 4 and 5 testinig against US subs without acoustic coating. Or simple steel submarines. Range defference between is near 3 times. F.e. homing system can detect sub with acoustic coating in range 1500 meters or without acoustic coating 4500 meters. Homing system Mk-48 mod.4 have range 3500 meters in submarines without acoustic coating. UGST have 2500 meter against submarine with acoustic coating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denis_469 (Post 2492420)

Data about torpedoes before 1989 year and USET-80: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000051-000-20-0#020

All what you need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denis_469 (Post 2492422)

Thanks. A lot of useful stuff there.
I have two questions though. Can you tell us what was your source for all this data? And, since you seem to have more knowledge of Soviet torpedoes than anyone else in this thread perhaps you now whatt type of warhead are used in Soviet torpedoes in the game (UMGT-1, Test-71, USET-80, SET-65, in case you don't have the game)?

There is a slight problem with using this data in a game though. As far as I know, acquisition range for torpedoes is constant, meaning, if you set torpedo range to 4000 yards it will always detect anything within that 4kyds regardless of any coating. And not every Soviet sub in the game has them (looking at the files, Novembers and Alfas don't).
But, since most of them have, I'll leave Mk48 range at 1600 yards.
As for other torpedoes, looking at this data shows that (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

Test-71 - should have detection range of 2600 yds (your site says it's 800m, but was released from 1976 so it was tested against coated subs, so 800m*3 converted to yards is around 2600

SET-65 - theoretically it should have the same range as Test-71, but since the set-65 is used by the '68 era subs I've decided to use earlier models, which means 400-600m for surface vessels. For a torpedo in the game I think 400 yds is a good number.

USET-80 and UMGT-1 - your site tells us it's 1500m. If we assume it's against coated subs, so the range against uncoated US vessels in the game should be 4500m = 4900 yds. A bit much, but that's considering the ration of detecting coated/uncoated sub is 3:1 (is there any example of a torpedo being tested against both for reference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon (Post 2492467)

Can you tell us what was your source for all this data?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon (Post 2492467)

And, since you seem to have more knowledge of Soviet torpedoes than anyone else in this thread perhaps you now whatt type of warhead are used in Soviet torpedoes in the game (UMGT-1, Test-71, USET-80, SET-65, in case you don't have the game)?

Usually warheads. Morskaya smes in Russian.

I have not Cold waters, so not know what torpedoes in you game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon (Post 2492467)

There is a slight problem with using this data in a game though. As far as I know, acquisition range for torpedoes is constant, meaning, if you set torpedo range to 4000 yards it will always detect anything within that 4kyds regardless of any coating. And not every Soviet sub in the game has them (looking at the files, Novembers and Alfas don't).

Exept November all subs have coating. And Alfa like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon (Post 2492467)

But, since most of them have, I'll leave Mk48 range at 1600 yards.
As for other torpedoes, looking at this data shows that (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

Test-71 - should have detection range of 2600 yds (your site says it's 800m, but was released from 1976 so it was tested against coated subs, so 800m*3 converted to yards is around 2600

SET-65 - theoretically it should have the same range as Test-71, but since the set-65 is used by the '68 era subs I've decided to use earlier models, which means 400-600m for surface vessels. For a torpedo in the game I think 400 yds is a good number.

USET-80 and UMGT-1 - your site tells us it's 1500m. If we assume it's against coated subs, so the range against uncoated US vessels in the game should be 4500m = 4900 yds. A bit much, but that's considering the ration of detecting coated/uncoated sub is 3:1 (is there any example of a torpedo being tested against both for reference?

Data about torpedoes you can easy read. About correlation ranges: during 1960-1980 years was near 3, so range was small. After it proportion lesser and now in last modern torpedos is like 2000 meters with coating and 3000 meters without coating. It is not data modern homing system, simple for understand modern proportion. So power homing system near high level in range and so defference between cuts. In 2020 years, I think, that deferrence endede and coating woud not cuts find ranges for modern homing systems. During 1990-2000 years was near 1,5-2 and now less 1,5.

All soviet (Russian) torpedoes testing against our subs with coating after 1960 years.

And more: what I write like proportion 3:1 - it is in excellent sea condition. In really ocean proportion must less. For torpedoes this period near 2,3 - 2,5 I think. When you read about torpedoes homing ranges so see in homing systems. UMGT-1 and USET-80 have identical homing system Vodopad. So data about range identical. For 1984 year you need made SET-65 III modification. In 1986 year SET-65K modofication. With other soviet torpedoes you need made last modificaton for year. So first SET-65 and SET-65K too defference between.

Thank-you Denis!

I understand your searching for information. Open Source information collection is amazing. It takes time, but is very rewarding.

My research told me the Clusterguard tiles give a 50% reduction in active detection range, which seems plausible. There's a problem with the torpedoes in that they currently ignore the anechoic tiles, which is a programming oversight. We'll fix this in subsequent updates so it is probably best to have a common set of detection ranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denis_469 (Post 2492484)

All write in open sources. First my ebook was for Headquarters Northern fleet in Severomorsk in 2000 year. After it I receive more data and write in himself. Except my write naval weapons for HQ Northern fleet I not place information. I have my site and write describe torpedoes an missiles as I wish.

Usually warheads. Morskaya smes in Russian.

I have not Cold waters, so not know what torpedoes in you game.

Exept November all subs have coating. And Alfa like.

Data about torpedoes you can easy read. About correlation ranges: during 1960-1980 years was near 3, so range was small. After it proportion lesser and now in last modern torpedos is like 2000 meters with coating and 3000 meters without coating. It is not data modern homing system, simple for understand modern proportion. So power homing system near high level in range and so defference between cuts. In 2020 years, I think, that deferrence endede and coating woud not cuts find ranges for modern homing systems. During 1990-2000 years was near 1,5-2 and now less 1,5.

All soviet (Russian) torpedoes testing against our subs with coating after 1960 years.

And more: what I write like proportion 3:1 - it is in excellent sea condition. In really ocean proportion must less. For torpedoes this period near 2,3 - 2,5 I think. When you read about torpedoes homing ranges so see in homing systems. UMGT-1 and USET-80 have identical homing system Vodopad. So data about range identical. For 1984 year you need made SET-65 III modification. In 1986 year SET-65K modofication. With other soviet torpedoes you need made last modificaton for year. So first SET-65 and SET-65K too defference between.

Thanks. That's a lot of useful informations. :Kaleun_Salute:

Ok, here it goes.

Second iteration of "realism mod" beta.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5...WowYldoTlZsY1U

Here's total list of changes. (highlighted new changes in bold).

Quote:

Installation:

Place the override folder in steamapps\common\Cold Waters\ColdWaters_Data\StreamingAssets

IMPORTANT!
Mod is compatible with CW ver 1.03 beta.
Play at HARD difficulty with 1:1 scale and 1x time.

Changes:

Campaign:
- reduced recon ranges
- time 2x slower
- bonus: Nato icons for the map
- increased time between events

Movement:
- increased angular momentum for all US subs (also slightly reduced for LA from previous version) - now all subs turn differently (in vanilla Sturgeon, Permit and Narwhal shared the same values).

Sensors:
- MAD detection range reduced to 400
- Sonobuoys passive sensitivity reduced to 25
- Dipping sonar sensitivity increased to 32
- decreased TMA rate for player and AI to 0.7

Weapons:
- new warhead sizes for all torpedoes - first based on real values of TNT equivalent, than uniformaly scaled so that a single MK48 can kill most subs but not heavier ships (above 8000 tons)
- new noise values for all torpedoes based on speed and propulsion types
- decreased acquisition range for Mark 48 to 1600.
- decreased sensor angle for Mark 48 to 60.
- new acquisition ranges for all Soviet torpedoes based on real values
- decreased lifetime for knuckles to 3
- decreased noise (effectivnes) for knuckles to 50

Other:
- decreased player hull strength to 0.65
- increased AI hull strength to 1.25
- increased combat repair time to 2.5

Using MekStark's low underwater visibility mod.

Thanks to Denis_469 for data on Soviet torpedoes.

What does it mean hard difficulty?
We don't have such a setting in the game... it's either realistic or elite?
Also which file is using the reduced visibility mode... I don't really fancy it (makes the game look worse) so I would like to remove it.
In fact I would like to see a more dynamic ocean (with fishes and fauna and stuff) rather than a dull dark ocean... you have lots of time to basically do nothing in the game so the visuals can make this boredom a bit better...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaudiuC (Post 2492558)

What does it mean hard difficulty?
We don't have such a setting in the game... it's either realistic or elite?

Sorry, didn't notice they changed name :)
Realistic then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaudiuC (Post 2492558)

Also which file is using the reduced visibility mode... I don't really fancy it (makes the game look worse) so I would like to remove it.

Just delete whole environment folder from override.

I've messed up.
Warhead sizes were too big.

Here's new link with correct ones:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5...WowYldoTlZsY1U
(link in previous post changed too)

Personally, I just took your new subs and kept the defaults for the rest, for now.

Just out of curiosity what sources are you using for some of these values (outside of personal preference)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RushTheBus (Post 2492662)

Just out of curiosity what sources are you using for some of these values (outside of personal preference)?

All the research can be found in this thread.

But, to make your life a little easier I'll break it down here:

Quote:

Campaign:
- reduced recon ranges
- time 2x slower
- bonus: Nato icons for the map
- increased time between events

These are purely my personal preference. For ex. with recon ranges I think the game gives you too much information about where the enemy is - there's no uncertainty common in submarine warfare - that's why I changed it.

Quote:

Movement:
- increased angular momentum for all US subs

Basically, I starter by comparing 688 with DW. After achieving roughly similar results I based values for other boats on displacement difference (for ex. displacement ratio between Narwhal and 688 is 1.288, so for Narwhal I multiplied LA's values by this number).

Quote:

- MAD detection range reduced to 400

This paper: http://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/han...pdf?sequence=1
page 42 (took the middle value for 60 latitudes)

Quote:

- Sonobuoys passive sensitivity reduced to 25
- Dipping sonar sensitivity increased to 32

Based on gut feelings with comparing to DW

Quote:

- decreased TMA rate for player and AI to 0.7

Personal preference and gameplay reasons (I think TMA's are too quick in base game)

Quote:

- new warhead sizes for all torpedoes

First, I took warhead sizes from this website: - new warhead sizes for all torpedoes
Then I calculated their TNT equivalent. After that I replaced the Mk48 warhead in the game with a real value and did some tweaking so you need 2 torpedoes to kill Sovremenny but 1 for most submarines. Turned out it's 0.83 of real value. Then I multiplied real values for all weapons by 0.83 and put those in the game.

Quote:

- new noise values for all torpedoes based on speed and propulsion types

Here's the spreadsheet that contains all calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1880361556

Quote:

- decreased sensor angle for Mark 48 to 60.

Gut feeling based on playing DW

Quote:

- decreased acquisition range for Mark 48 to 1600.
- new acquisition ranges for all Soviet torpedoes based on real values

Mostly, denis_469's forums (http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000051-000-20-0#020) and conversations in this thread.

Quote:

- decreased lifetime for knuckles to 3
- decreased noise (effectivnes) for knuckles to 50

Personal preference

Quote:

- decreased player hull strength to 0.65
- increased AI hull strength to 1.25

This to account for different hull design (single hull for us, double for Soviet) - basically this means that any torpedo except UMGT-1 will kill any US sub.

Quote:

- increased combat repair time to 2.5

That's also personal preference

Can we have these values added to a mod which lets you tweak them in the settings page?

Does this mean I need to be updated or is it OK?