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-   -   Breaking Oregon Militia Occupies Federal Building (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=223645)

Aktungbby 01-27-16 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2377223)
They fought the law and the law won.

A bit of a CLASH at that!:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4! (sorry I couldn't resist!l):shucks:

Oberon 01-27-16 12:40 AM

Just read that the chap that was shot had eleven kids!

And they talk about Muslims breeding to take over the world. :doh:

Buddahaid 01-27-16 01:11 AM

Terrible but not unexpected after all. Christ, eleven kids? These people live in the old world so it must be God's will then.

Kptlt. Neuerburg 01-27-16 01:10 PM

Quote:

The Washington Post
Federal agents moved early Wednesday morning to seal off a remote wildlife refuge in Oregon, hours after authorities arrested several leaders of the armed activists who had seized the land in a shootout that killed one of the group’s most prominent members.
In the weeks since the group began its occupation, local and federal law enforcement officials had called for the occupation to end peacefully. On Tuesday, after these calls and attempts at negotiations went nowhere, authorities moved to arrest several group members while they were away from the compound. A total of eight people were arrested, at the shootout and other locations.
After the exchange of gunfire on a highway, Ammon Bundy, the group’s leader, and others were arrested on federal charges. Other members of the group remained at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, but before the sun rose over a remote swath of eastern Oregon previously best known for its bird-watching, authorities said they were blocking access to the federal land.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/aut...xtX?li=BBnb7Kz

Platapus 01-27-16 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2377240)
Just read that the chap that was shot had eleven kids!...


I wonder how much government support he was getting?

Torplexed 10-27-16 07:51 PM

Interesting development in this story. All the defendants were acquitted in Portland, Oregon today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37795012

I guess it's open season on federal land and armed insurrection. :o

em2nought 10-27-16 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2443096)
Interesting development in this story. All the defendants were acquitted in Portland, Oregon today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37795012

Great! Just in time for them to vote! :up:

Oberon 10-28-16 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought (Post 2443099)
Great! Just in time for them to vote! :up:

http://cdn.historynet.com/wp-content...D4sD0AZNCG.jpg
Artists impression of polling stations on the 8th November.

Mr Quatro 10-28-16 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2443096)
Interesting development in this story. All the defendants were acquitted in Portland, Oregon today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37795012

I guess it's open season on federal land and armed insurrection. :o

Oregon is Oregon ... they won't even let you pump your own gas ... an attendant has to come out and do it.

Oregon does things their way :yep:

Rockstar 10-28-16 08:27 AM

interesting, not sure but maybe jury nullification came into play in this case. Also too the fat lady hasnt started singing yet, I heard Nevada want a piece of them next.

MaDef 10-28-16 10:28 AM

While i tend to be Law & order kind of guy, I also grew up west of Colorado Springs where the Pike National forest was my back yard. Over the years I've watched the feds "administer" federal lands out here in the western U.S. and I pretty much have to agree with the Bundy's on this one, the State and local governments should be the ones to administer those lands. I find it hard to believe that politicians & bureaucrats residing in a city 2500 miles away really understand the land.

Platapus 10-28-16 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 2443137)
interesting, not sure but maybe jury nullification came into play in this case. Also too the fat lady hasnt started singing yet, I heard Nevada want a piece of them next.


I think it is a case of jury nullification and i am against that.

MaDef 10-28-16 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2443183)
I think it is a case of jury nullification and i am against that.

why Is it Jury nullification? Isn't more likely the Gov. over charged, and then didn't meet the burden of proof required?

Platapus 10-28-16 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDef (Post 2443186)
why Is it Jury nullification? Isn't more likely the Gov. over charged, and then didn't meet the burden of proof required?


It would be nice if we had all the facts of the case. It does not sound like they were over charged and does seem to be ample evidence that they did what they did. It was on the new for many days.

I hope it was not a case of jury nullification. That can be a terrible thing that can further undermine the confidence in our justice system (which has been strained recently).

MaDef 10-28-16 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2443187)
I hope it was not a case of jury nullification. That can be a terrible thing that can further undermine the confidence in our justice system (which has been strained recently).

Really? Jury nullification has been around since the inception of the United States and is an integral part of our justice system. To Quote Chief Justice John Jay:

"It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumbable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision."

Platapus 10-28-16 09:54 PM

It is a contentious issue that's for sure. I just have personal dislike for it as it can be abused and there is no oversight. But that's just my own opinion.

August 10-29-16 01:23 AM

I think the lack of oversight is the whole point. A free people must never give up their right to self determination and that extends to the freedom to judge their peers as they see fit.

MaDef 10-29-16 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2443257)
It is a contentious issue that's for sure. I just have personal dislike for it as it can be abused and there is no oversight. But that's just my own opinion.

I'm not sure I understand the abuse part?

As for oversight, I think jury nullification is actually the citizens way to oversee the justice system. Case in point: the 18th amendment was repealed partially due to 60% of prosecutions involving alcohol being nullified.

Platapus 10-29-16 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDef (Post 2443302)
I'm not sure I understand the abuse part?

As for oversight, I think jury nullification is actually the citizens way to oversee the justice system. Case in point: the 18th amendment was repealed partially due to 60% of prosecutions involving alcohol being nullified.

A fair question.

When most people think of jury nullification, it is in the context of the jury acquitting a defendant who is technically guilty of violating the law, but the jury feels that the law is either unjust or the law is being applied unfairly in this case. That's all well and good and many think it is a noble cause. But that is only one side of Jury Nullification.

Jury Nullification can also be represented when the jury convicts a defendant who is technically not guilty of violating the law, but the jury thinks the defendant is "getting off on a technicality" or the jury feels that an example needs to be made of the defendant.

Consider this example: you are on trial for shooting an intruder and your claim is self defense. Suppose the jury feels that there have been too many instances of people shooting people and claiming self defense and that "something has to be done about it" and chose to use you as an example and votes to convict. That is also a form of jury nullification, albeit a less common form.

It is commonly stated that jury nullification as a venue of sending a message to the judiciary or the prosecution about potentially unjust laws. However, this is only true if the judiciary or the prosecution knows the reason for the acquittal/conviction. A jury does not render their verdict by stating "your honor, we find the defendant not guilty because we are invoking our right of jury nullification". No. The jury renders their verdict by stating "we find the defendant not guilty".

The judiciary and prosecution does not know if the jury means

1. That the defendant is truly not guilty
2. That the prosecution was unsuccessful in proving the guilt of the defendant
3. That the jury feels that the law is unjust
4. That the jury feels that the law is being applied unfairly

Since the rational of the jury is not questioned, there is no message that can be used to change laws. Petitioning the legislation would be a better way of getting laws changed.

Then there is the lack of oversight. There is a real risk of discrimination in the decision of jury nullification. A jury may decide to acquit a white woman by invoking jury nullification, but another jury may convict a black man for the very same crime.

How can the judiciary ensure that citizens are treated fairly if juries have the uncontrolled and unsupervised ability to, at their whim, selectively apply the same law to different people.

The whole purpose of law is that all the citizens know what to do and not do.

How can a jury of laypeople determine if a law is unjust? What you are getting are some people's opinion whether a law is unjust, which is not the same thing as the law actually being unjust.

A law really can't be unjust if it is considered unjust in one situation but considered just in other situations.

If a law is unjust, the law needs to be changed, not arbitrarily nullified.
If the law is just but being implemented unfairly, there is the appeal process.

In theory, jury nullification sounds like a great idea. But the reality does not sound good in my opinion. Allowing 12 randomly selected people to decide (emotionally?) to selectively apply the law, to me, is a bad idea.

Torplexed 10-29-16 01:48 PM

I always thought the conspiracy charge was a stretch but how can they possibly be found not guilty of the weapons charges when there is hours of video footage of them toting guns on federal property? :hmmm:


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