A small update on torpedo duds. I did some tests and found out that the controls are quite broken. First issue is that lowering the torpedo speeds to reduce duds isn't working. The other is that date doesn't affect anything. I put the dud rate to 100% and between 1938-1943 and got the same effect in 1944 when the value was 0 %... Well at least that reduces the work amount for the mod!

Has anyone else got different results???

Okay, 'AA guns error angle test mod' available here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?855alb6j9vdk8cn

This mods contains 4 submods (enable one at a time). It doesn't include the changes introduced so far with armaments & equipments patch, but they are compatible with each other. The use of A&E patch v0.2 together with this last one, is optional.

The submods are:

1. decrease own AA guns error angle: should make AI controlled guns on your sub as good as the ones aboard ships (Max error angle=4.5, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=4.5, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
2. decrease even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships excellent shooter (Max error angle=1, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
3. increase AI AA guns error angle: should make the gunners aboard ships as bad as your ones (Max error angle=15, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=15, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
   
   
4. increase even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships horrible shooters (Max error angle=30, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=30, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)

The above names and my explainations of them are assuming that the Max error angle parameter in sim.cfg is applied only to ships mounted guns.
If this interpetation is not correct, then only the 2nd submod will be balanced; the 2nd submod would make our gunners a bit more accurate, but still worse that the ones aboard ships, and the 3rd and 4th, though decreasing the accuracy of ship mounted AA guns, would make our own guns inpossible to handle: I wouldn't be surprised if weird things happened :yep:

That's enough right now. Keep me informed on the results guys! :up:

Is this with TDW's patch enabled? Is it possible that when fixing the general feature, he disabled speed and date controllers? :hmmm:

Your positive attitude doesn't convice me. Not in this case :)
To me is inacceptable having, during late war, the same dud rates as in 1939 :wah:

Anyway not everything is lost: while we wait for TDW to hopefully come back and have a look at the issue, you (:D) can collect as much historical info as you can and prepare several versions of the mod with different dud rates for different periods. At worse, we will fix those dud torps the hard way, by enabling a different submod every six months :O: :up:

Thanks Gap! :up:

I'll test it a bit later today..
Tried to raise two snorkel at once (snorkel by the Beast and snorkel by TDW) about four hours.. :D unsuccessful.. now go to sleep..
I'll try your tests after wake up.. :03:

I wish you have a good and refreshing rest, lieutenant Volodya. You need to be fit for the gunnery trials that are waiting for you tomorrow. :O: :arrgh!:

not tomorrow.. already today.. 06:00 AM here, in native area.. :)

I have finished the stock game before, and I am doing to Open Horizons 2 campaign now. I will go back to the stock games Mare Nostrum if you need more test results.
I do find shooting down aircraft to be quite interesting, I'd call myself 'Good' at it, my choice of AA gun is the 'Improved Flak 30', from the Beasts upgrade unlock.
If you don't know what the Improved Flak 30 is, It's a flak 30 with the aiming sight of the twin flak.
I will get to testing your mod straight away.

I just found out, that the Queen Elizabeth Battleships secondary guns don't have muzzle flash.

I would be grateful to you if you checked the test mods I've released yesterday. I need to know if you can confirm the descriptions I've made for each submod. In other words you should tell me if the AA guns are doing what they are supposed to, according to my changed settings and to my (coarse) interpretation of them. Please, don't exitate to ask if you need for any clarification.

Perfect :up:

at the moment I am especially interested in comparing AI's ability to shoot airplanes with both sub Flaks (let your crew manning them) and ship mounted AA guns. You can do it in campaign (there shouldn't be problems in enabling any of the test mods during middle patrol) or, even better, in an expressely designed mission.
Nonetheless, you can try as well to man the flaks yourself, and see if the changes done are affecting human difficulty too.
At some point, when we will make a better idea of the parameters involved, I would like our gunners to be at least as good as you, or even a bit better than you at doing their job, and ship gunners should be lesser infallible. :yep:

I know this gun, though after looking at its characteristics in guns_radars_01.sim, and after doing some research on the web, I have to say that it is probably fictive. I think I will give it the specs of a single mount Flak C/38 all the way, unless advised to the contrary ;)

You are right, after looking at its settings, I can confirm that that gun too misses its flash effect... dunno how, I had totally overlooked it. :oops:
I will rectify my inattention with the next patch. Thanks for reporting it. :)

And your mod is not compatible with Realistic ammo for flak and deck guns http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1706

Do you think you could make it compatible?
I like to carry more then the stock ammo, because the basic amount is unacceptable.

Yep, I have the latest patch running. It is possible that it has something to do with it, it could be that without the patch, imported ships would still react correctly to dud-rates, torpedo speeds and rates. But I can live without the low-speed reduction (even if that was historically accurate).

Positive attitude is everything, all is not lost indeed! I haven't read that much yet about the different torpedoes, but the game has 11 different torpedoes modelled. And we have now mods that make them available to use in the right time. So can't we just make the new torpedoes more reliable and stop using the old faulty ones? Different dud values work for different torpedoes.

Other option is to try to make a new torpedo. We could make another TypeI torpedo that comes available in '43 that is much more reliable than the early war version. In this case we need to edit the torpedos GR2-file and add some stuff there, is that now possible with TDW's tool?

No, of course it is not! Forgive me for my moment of despair :D

My opinion is still that date-depending dud rates, and speed-depending dud chances are too cool features for simply giving them up. Nonetheless, atm there isn't much we can do for them but hoping that TDW will revise his patch one day. In the emanwhile, I see, you got devised some good workarounds!

I don't know... I have not in-depth information on this topic, but I think that more reliable versions of the standard TI torpedo were produced before the advent of the TIII model or FaT/LuT variants. In other words, while it was inproved, TI was still the main choice, whereas newer torpedo types were available in limitated stocks.

IIRC, this fact is modelled in game, with the most recent torpedo types being not always available during normal refittings, not to mention that, when refitting at sea, the player is assigned totally random torpedo loadouts.

All in all, I believe that apllying the method yo have suggested would either limit too much our choice, or force us to use flawed torpedoes even when (historically) dud chances were not so high :yep:

If any other approach failed, this workaround would nonetheless be an acceptable compromise. :)

THIS is actually a good idea! :up:
we can clone existing torpedoes and, by setting wisely availability dates, slowly replace the dud ones with their improved versions... I could I have been so blind not to see it before? :88) :O:

I'm slowly moving my first setps into learning the tricks of TDW's GR2 editor. As far as I know, doing what you are suggesting should be possible.
Applying your idea would require just to edit the Id's of torpedo GR2 files to be cloned. If we manage to do it, what remains to be done is remapping the new Id's in sim/zon files, and updating them with the wanted settings. Boring task yes, but immune from complications :know:

I have also noticed, that Depth charges have been reaching me deeper than their 91 meter limit, and their sonar's passive and active have been reaching me at over 160 meters under, I personally don't believe that to be possible.
And I am in silent running but when they go directly above me, their passive sonar keeps detecting me. Any idea's?
Can you wait until they have circled you so long they need to refuel?

I didn't look into depth charges yet. I will investigate :up:

This is another aspect that I still haven't studied in depth.
For sure there's a 'Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation' parameter in Sim.cfg. Stock value was 5 (=20% attenuation), but it was making AI too dumb. IRAI reduces it to 1.7 (1=no signal attenuation).
Also note that, unless I am very much mistaken, there's no way to change the thermal layer depth. It varies randomly.

P.S: have you started tests with AA guuns?

After a second thought, I suggest you and Volodya to carry on your tests using a custom mission. AI aiming accuracy might be affected by seastate, light, fog, crew training, etc. Appreciating all of these factors in campaign would be difficult if not impossible. :yep:

Well, testing completed..
much time has been spent on re-editing .sim-files.. for testing was necessary to increase the ammo amount.. (usually I'm using Ammo by Raven2012)



the crew still doesn't know how to shoot

a bit better but I'm still the best


now the AI-ship's gunners force down planes less frequently and not as fast as before
maybe we should slightly reduce the error angle? perhaps 10 would be enough



it was just a joke :D


Okay, I think no need to change the AA settings for subs, only for AI-ships..
am I understanding correctly that these files (20mm_C30.sim etc., 37mmM.sim etc.) are the sub's armament files and this one (Vierling.sim) is an AI-ship's armament file?

Are the German and Italian destroyers armed with an active sonar? because I created a test mission, and the Soldati and type 1934 destroyers don't seem to follow the British U-Class subs once they are underwater.

Yes, as far as I can see from their sns files, they do.

Nonetheless AI sonars are set to stop working above 8 mt below the sea level. It is possible that:

- the bone where the sonar is attached on the ship model is misplaced (above the 8 mt depth, thus rendering the sensor unoperative);
- some other setting in sensors_AI.sim needs to be adjusted;
- enemy subs are lacking a setting/property needed for making them detectable underwater;
- friendly ship's AI is flawed/unable to follow submarine target.

In the latter case there is little I can do without TDW's help.

In order to avoid confusion I prefer facing a problem at a time, but I will take a mental note of the issue, and I will look further into it at the right moment. Please keep this mission in a safe place for future testing. :)

Wolodya my friend,

we are about to make an important discovery here that will greatly improve the realism of surface to surface and surface to air engagements. Your tests seem to confirm my hypothesis that the two tolerance factors are combined with the 'Max error angle' parameter in Sim.cfg for affecting guns' accuracy.

If that was true, it would mean that we can individually adjust horizontal and vertical dispersion for each gun: in other words, no more millimetrically accurate AI guns or, on the other hand, totally dumb gunners on our boat. It makes me wonder why no one looked in these parameters before, since there were many complaints on this subject :up:

Yes, I know that mod. Realistic ammo loadouts are in my todo list too. :up:

Now my remarks to your individual reports:

• decrease own AA guns error angle: should make AI controlled guns on your sub as good as the ones aboard ships (Max error angle=4.5, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=4.5, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by volodya61 (Post 1990077) the crew still doesn't know how to shoot

  That's weird. The stock setting for both Trav and Elev tolerance of sub AA guns is 15 deg. I have reduced the above figures to only 4.5 (that's 30% of the original). It doesn't add up, unless Max error angle in Sim.cfg is affecting our guns as well as AI guns. If that was true, we would have an error angle of 4.5 x 4.5 = 20.25 deg: still too much for our poor gunners :yep:
  
  
  
• decrease even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships excellent shooter (Max error angle=1, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by volodya61 (Post 1990077) a bit better but I'm still the best

  only a bit better? These settings should have converted both your and AI ship's gunners into snipers :hmm2:
  
  P.S. are you a sniper? ;) :D
  
  
  
• increase AI AA guns error angle: should make the gunners aboard ships as bad as your ones (Max error angle=15, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=15, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by volodya61 (Post 1990077) now the AI-ship's gunners force down planes less frequently and not as fast as before

  :up:
  what about your crew? Did they get totally crazy, or they were just as bad/good as in stock?
  
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by volodya61 (Post 1990077) maybe we should slightly reduce the error angle? perhaps 10 would be enough

  Do you mean that a 'Max error angle' of 15deg makes AI guns too bad? from your first comment (...force down planes less frequently... etc) it seemed to me that they were just a bit worse than in stock game, and for my understanding of the file settings, they should be just as bad as vanilla sub gunners :hmmm:
  
  
  
• increase even more own and AI AA guns error angle: should make both your gunners and the ones enlisted on ships horrible shooters (Max error angle=30, sub guns Trav/Elev tolerance=30, ship guns Trav/Elev tolerance=1)
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by volodya61 (Post 1990077) it was just a joke :D

  Not exactly. We learn from our mistakes, but I think I had warned you that some of my settings were a bit excessive ;) :D

So are you okay with the vanilla settings as far as far as U-boat guns are concerned? Personally, I would expect a trained AI gunner to be at least as good as the captain-player if not better. If you think that our gunners are already good enough, I can try making the aiming more difficult for the player. What do you think?

In any case, before I start finetuning the settings, I need to know wether the aiming of AI ships/sub's guns is affected by crew experience, weather, ambien light, etc. or not. Can you make some tests on this subject? :D

Yes, you are correct: all the guns contained in the Objects\Guns folder are selectable sub upgrades, with the one exception of the AI_Deck_Gun_GE88mm gun, which is fitted aboard AI subs. The Vierlig is the quad mount version of the C/38 20mm Flak. The same gun is also available as ship armaments in guns_radars_01 :up:

I fiddled with TDW's editor some time ago, so I could try to mess with the torpedoes this weekend. I started to read again the "Wolves Without Teeth: German Torpedo Crisis" thesis which is really interesting to read. And a very good source material! So it might be that I continue doing that instead! Maybe it's better to first get the data right.

Concerning the AI guns and submarine crew: I think also that the AI ships seem to be too good, they shoot airplanes down pretty easily. And I don't know what was the historical percentage that destroyers and battleships hit enemy ships, right now they are also very good at it, almost every shell hits their target. And one last point, remember that the sub crew gains experience, gunner at the start of the game doesn't seem to hit anything, but after few campaigns, there is a significant change in it. There's my thoughts of the day! :D

If you got nothing else to do, both your plans for the next weekend seem equally goog to me. :up:

Regarding your reading, yes indeed that David Wright, author of the essay, should be awarded with the Nobel Prize in videogaming :D
If I can give you a suggestion, for ease of access I would start arranging the information contained in it into a worksheet.

Okay, wait for me and Volodya to sabotage a bit their AA guns, and let's see what happens. I hope they won't become an easy pray for airplanes :doh:

For what I can see, there are 2 different 'Max error angle' settings in Sim.cfg, one for AA guns, and one for surface cannons. Moreover, each gun got a Trav.tolerance and a Elev.tolerance parameter in guns_radars_01.sim. Once we fully understand their mechanism, we will be able to adjust whatever gun.

What is especially cool about the two tolerance factors is that, by playing with them, we can give each gun its characteristic dispersion values based on historical specs (some guns had unusal vertical and/or horizontal dispersion values compared to "average guns).

Thank you for reporting this piece of information. I was going to ask you about it!

By any chance, is there a way to set our crew's experience in custom mission? Does it work as for other units? And do you happen to know if AI-unit's guns are likewise affectet by crew ranking? :hmm2:

I have some connection issues today, so I can't responding right away :nope:

All tests were on the sub with only one gunner on board. Maybe later I'll try to test a sub with several gunners. On the other hand we are on board the sub rather than on the destroyer.. :D

For some reasons a gunner shoots often below or above the target and it doesn't look like a preemptive shots..
Although the accuracy of the shots in both tests was good but most shots off target

a bit :D

as in stock

Maybe a language barrier to blame? I'm not always accurately can pick the right words :nope:
In these tests was the task force (6 DD's and 2 Dido) and they downed the planes too long, I think, in reality, they would have done it a bit faster..

Do you think that the "a bit" is a right word? :haha: :O:

I think that we are on board the sub and our main weapon is the torpedoes :up:
On the other hand, I am using Sober's bad weather deck gun for inaccuracy during the storm :hmmm:

OK.. I'll do it :yep:

Now I see :up: