I can't get too high horse about it, because I know for certain that if we had the resources, technology and manpower that the US had we'd be doing exactly the same thing...well, heck, we are doing the same thing down at GCHQ. I dare say that the French have their own network, although without as much of the resources, and God alone knows what MOSSAD has.

If everyone else does it doesnt make it right.

I think the issue here is that some people have an illusion that US is a benighn actor and would not spy on it's allies.

Exactly.

No, but the only way to stop it would be to get everyone to stop it at the same time, it's like disarmament, no-one wants to be the guy to drop his pistol first just in case the other guy decides to shoot him.

That goes without saying, it's still worth some criticism though. I don't care who does what, and for me there's also no "us", since my government sure doesn't do what I agree with.

In the end, anything cyber-war is completely out of control, be it the CIA more or less spying illegally on everyone, or Russia heavily - and successfully - influencing Europe's political course, it's all bonkers.

And it won't end well at all...

There are some talks on that front. The issue is less with recon cyber and more with the offensive cyber.

This "news" fails to score a scandal. Its like it is always with human psychological adaptation: repeat something often enough, and what spiked a row back then, does not cause any uproar after some repetitions anymore. And why should people cry wolf indeed? The Russians manipulate public opinion and elections in several western countries. The British listen in to everything everywhere. The Germans are not as innocent as they claimed to be two years ago - just that their possibilities lack behind that of the GCHQ's and NSA's possibilities, both in quality and quantity (they even asked in the past to become member of the club of five eyes, but were refused to join). The internet of things get used to spy on people. Social media were in the headlines repeatedly. Companies' customer databases were repeatedly hacked and data corrupted. Windows 10 is snoopware and sellware, and people submit to it. And people warning and criticising these things - people like me for example - more and more resign and withdraw, quitting their inner ties with this society and crazyness all around.

This latest story is an old story, and so does not catch much attention anymore. Welcome in the bad brave new world.

Looks like EU Armed Forces are happening one way or another, with EU members integrating into Bundeswehr, ie:

In German:

a well-integrated third generation German Turk's consternation about the German appeasement policy.

https://www.welt.de/debatte/kommenta...ssungslos.html

In germany, in general you can note that the best and most competent arguments against Merkels mass migration nightmare are coming from integrated earlier migrants, and the best informed and most competent criticsm of Islam and dreams of Islam's ability to get integrated is coming from apostates and Muslims who had to flee from muslim theocracies, and that the only loud criticsm of Erdoghan is coming from a minority amongst the Turks living in Germany, (and of curse Kurdish groups).

Native Germans by majority, officials and citizens alike, still dream the dream of big illusions and self-deceptions. Islam means peace. Turkey is a friend. Integration of Muslim migrants works great.

Many people fled to germany in past decades, amongs them many women, in the hope that Germany would be a place where they would be protected against what they fled from. And now they see that Germany lets them down, and allows right the kind of evil that they once were running away from. And Germany is not even shameful enough to not claim moral reasons for this betrayal and cynical policy.

Ekelhaft.

Media say the Dutch asked Germany for help in their row with Turkey, and Germany let them down. It is little Denmark that jumps to Holland's support and has sided up with it today. Shame on Germany once again. Shame.

Did you really expect anything less? Like Merkel having a spine (well, I know you didn't but some people still do for reasons that are beyond me)?
There are a few million weaponized refugees waiting in Turkey to be let lose into Europe and both Erogan and Merkel know this. We've lost! We had lost the moment when we decided that others should be responsible for protecting our borders. We had lost when we didn't care for the refugee problems that haunted Greece and Italy for years. We had lost when we decided that Turkey has to be our friend and ally no matter what. I can only congratulate Erdogan. He's played all his cards and every one was higher than the ones we had. We've only one card left to play and that's tourism. But since we, as a people, don't give a sheet enough of us will still go there on vacation and leave their money there which Turkey so desperately needs.:/\\!!

If the future is so dark then what's the point in going forward to it? :hmmm:

What's the alternative? Blowing my brains out? Surrender and let it happen unopposed? All we can do is communicate with people. Change their perspective so that they won't fall for the garbage of the left that we're told but also to prevent them from believing all the unfounded garbage from the right that say the only solution to the problem would be to install the 4th Reich. We need to get the center of the political spectrum to act and not leave it to the far right/left which will happen if the center doesn't finally get it's act together.:/\\!!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...ch_468x538.jpg
http://www.misconceptionjunction.com...54-290x160.jpg

As long as it stays that way :O:

Implying that EU is not the 4th Reich.

Makes me wonder if this diplomatic crisis would actually turn into something significant.

We are not lost - we still have options left. For examplew to seal off the borders and again pratcice the covereign right of soveriegnb states to decide whom from outside we let pass and whom not.

We want to be lost, by not doing this. That is the difference. instead we attack Trump over his attempt to seal the Mexican border, lecture Americans wanting to stop illegal immigration into the US. :timeout: Why don'T we help the Bulgarians and Greeks to seal off their border with Turkey? Turkey is no part of Europe and not member of the EU. That means the Bulgarian and Greek borders are the outer borders of the whole EU in that area. We should help by technology, material, and if needed border police contingents. Other European nations should do that as well, and affected border states shoulkd receoive that assistance. Instead Merkel and Tusk and others demand all others to let everybody in and to accept refugees that Germany has channeled into Europe en masse. Idiots we are. Anything to make sure these borders are tight, should be done, and then all traffic gets controlled again, like in the time before Shengen.

Like plain, healthy reason would dictate it.

We should do so with all outer borders, and the mediterranean. And we have the means to do so. What prevents us? Only our own self-restraints.

We should do like the Australians, and we should broacast the situation on sea via airwaves to the ME and Africa - so that people see how bad it is. We should have detention camps like the Australians and lioke Auistria'S Kurtz is demanding, and we should have live TV coverage of the Australian regime we run there. Does not work? The Australians disagree, their illegal immigration rate is down to below 3% of the former levels they had. They have now the situaiton that not only they can chose whiom they let in and whiom not - but that they indeed can control it and enforce their decisions to be followed.

We could do these things as well, the options all exist. We do not want to use them. That is a difference. Not being able to do something, and not wanting to do something, are not the same.

We want them to stzay away, but we are not wanting to tell them.We hope the fairy queen stops them for us, or that they stay away all by themsaelves, all of a sudden, for miraculous reasons and mysterious motivations. We could say No. But we do not want to be seen by anyone that we actually say No. We bring out this seed this seed with both hands - and our harvest will be accordingly. Idiots we are. We are not being stopped, or being prevented - we are idiots, drunk of our own self-delusions and good-doer-syndrome. Our brains are rotten from all our high flying superidealism. No neurons left to calculate reality realistically.

We can, as we almost always have done in a civilized world-discuss, debating and maybe throw words against each other, while those who have a more darken agenda keep on with their work unimpeded.

Markus

https://media.giphy.com/media/dC9DTdqPmRnlS/giphy.gif


I think you'd have more luck with the other option.

Wat.

A half troll. There is a fairly popular view the EU is the German attempt to create an Empire within Europe.