Seems about right, RIP Turkey. :dead:

Former General Wesley Clark said the coup failed because these rebels missed the most basic mechanic of a successful coup. Which is grab or isolate the man in charge. Now, all the coup plotters have done is give Erdogan an excuse to squash opposition and completely consolidate power.

Erodgan looks like another sterling example of how, even in a country with a democratic tradition electing a strongman leader can undo a democracy. Those voting in the fall take note. :nope:

I now feel a little better informed but readily admit what I have learned may well have a good dose of bias in it.

One story told me....

Young conscripts (late teens-early twenties) are given orders shortly after midnight at their barracks via senior level of command to drive their vehicles (tanks included) to various locations and await orders.

One of said tanks is positioned on a certain bridge as crowds gather and eventually climb onto the turret.

The 20 year-old conscript (possibly tank commander) is pushed and jostled whilst sitting atop of the turret and asked what he is doing there. He responds saying he has no idea, is simply following orders and awaiting further instructions.

The crowd become increasingly hostile and a cameraman appears and starts recording, at which point the young conscript is dragged from the turret and decapitated.

Man, I hope he wasn't the victim of a frame-up job, but it sure sounds like it. :-?

Apparently the young guys mother saw it as it was streamed live on local tv :nope:

Reminds me of the conscripts of the JNA in 1991, when some had no idea what's going on. Some had no idea, others were told anything from exercise maneouvers to an Italian invasion.

A lot of POW were simply captured when a TO unit aproached a JNA unit and disarmed them because the JNA though that the TO's were comming to reinforce them, not fight them.

Of course, the TO's took extremly good care of the POWs to the point that the conscripts surrendered just because they heard how well they would be treated. We arent sickos like Erdognojs people :nope:


JNA means Jugoslav national army and TO were the police and troops of the Teritorial defence who fought on Slovenes side.

Once again the West shows how to tolerate itself to death. All this mumbojumbo about how precious democratic elections are even if they are abused to make evil unavailable for criticism and brandkmarking - in Egypt it almost led to disaster until some more sane people took command, and it certainly has done that now in Turkey. But the West has its precious democratic proceedings being followed. Hooray.

We have helped to bring a monster in place. And it now starts to eat both bodies, and freedom, and radically deletes Turkish history and progress of the past 100 years. We can be proud of our idealistic disconnection from unwanted realities. It works for terrible results, but at least we meant it well, at least we were idealistic. Isn't that worth something, too...?

Before the end of this decade already we will bitterly wish for the coup having been successful and the military ruling Turkey.

I always thought it is a big mistake to reduce "democracy" only to majority votings as a leading principle. Not to mention - once again - that originally democracy meant something totally different anyway.

We cannot prevent the inner-political chnage in Turkey. But then it would be in our interest that we weaken Turkey as much as possible. We should start to deliver modern weaponry to the Kurds in Turkey to destabilise the regime, and to the Kurds outside Turkey to give them the teeth the need to bite back against Turkish air strikes and artillery.

Turkey is no friend anymore, nor an ally, but a poisonous blade sticking deep in Europe's sore, open flank. It is insane to act as if it still is in defence of NATO, or Europe. It'S no chance, but a major risk. Preaching this since many years.

With friends like this you really do not need declared enemies anymore. Such friends are much more dangerous.

It gets commented that Turkey is important for NATO since it fields the second largest army of all NATO members, after the US. But who said that in case of real troubles it really would use this army on behalf of NATO/European/American interests...??? The events of past years should teach us another truth. We cannot trust Turkey anymore, and that is the only fact that we must know.

Well, that's more due to the condition of the toillet ...

:)


.

Could be worse: when the German unit with Patriot systems was sent to Turkey some years ago to defend helpless Turkey against he ongoing aggression from terribly dangerous Syria that Turkey constantly provoked back then, the Turks sent the Germans to an empty Turkish garrison where the Germans were greeted with fresh feces covering the ground several centimeters high in all buildings. The Germans had to clean the mess. I know from one BW insider that the actual situation was even worse than what was reported in the media back then. Later there were several incidents when Turkish military tried to bully German personnel.

The German government just stayed bent over and took the spanking with closed lips. Never no complaint, but much of apüpeasing and sweet-talking.

Nice move.

Until today I have no clue why the German Patriot missiles and the German recce Tornados are in Turkey. They are not needed, and never were seriously expected to be needed. And I wonder whether the Patriots will ever be pulled back to Germany, or whether the equipment simply will be left there for the Turks (who use older Patriots and are eager to get their hands on the more modern versions the Germans use).

I've heard similar things, with poor conscripts being beheaded, lynched and thrown off the Bosporus bridge. Most of them had no idea what was going on, in fact I'd wager that the only ones who did were the air units, the ones who did the strafing and bombing.

Think about the the 50 B-61 hydrogen bombs in storage at Incirlik. That needs to end now.

Everybody should have understood by now that the plans for the great cleaning operation already were finished and just waited in a drawer to be pulled out. The witch-hunt for critics of Erdoghan, amongst university academics, teachers, doctors, writers, media workers, but also in police and justice apparatus and in the military, already had been opened long time before.

While many say that Erdoghan possibly - likely - has triggered the coup to gain card blanche for himself in return, another possible scenario is being considered now in debates, and it makes a lot of sense. That scenario says that Erdioghan was about to pull oput these cleaning operation blueprints anyway and at any moment - and that a desperate part of the military hastily triggered the coup in an last act of self-defence to forestall that cleaning operation in last minute. It also would just be the next logical step of escalation in Erdoghan's strategy to continouslsy increase the witch-hunt for his potential critics and oppositiuon.

This makes sense in that it perfectly explains why the coup seems to have been launched so hastily and seems to have been so incompletely planned.

However, the theory that Erdoghan triggerd it, explains that also, for Erdoghan certainly would not have wanted a coup so strong that it had the potential to overthrow him for real. However, rumours said today the Turkish air force has hunted Erdoghan's jet and tried to shoot it down. If that was no staged event as well, it speaks for that new theory popping up today that the military revolted in a desperate last-second attempt of self-defence to forestall Erdighan's strike.

I believe it has. The Turkish commander in charge of the base has been arrested, since apparently aircraft flew from the base during the coup, and flights are now resuming as normal.

Not sure I understand you correctly. You mean I should stop complaining because the German mini-presence helps to secure these...? Or do you think the storage of those A-bombs there should end? I think we can wait long for that to happen. Diplomatic symbolism, and all that precious sensible stuff.