Folks like August, Sailor Steve, myself and many others here understand one thing you don't seem to get - when you sign up you don't get a guarantee of sitting somewhere safe. You go where you are needed and you do the job you are given - sometimes the mission seems like a boneheaded reach, others it looks like a milk run. When you sign up - you know it could cost your life - and yet your willing to do it. To claim that "as long as it isn't your life" totally ignores that point and just goes to show that you have either no understanding of the sacrifices of a soldier (and thus take those sacrifices for granted) or you choose to dishonor the sacrifices.


Quoting youtube starring a washed up actor that supports a socialist dictator as a relevant and accurate source of US government propaganda is more than just a stretch you know....

Its not like he (or those he supports) are hostile to the US, huh?

Did he volunteer to go to Iraq?
Did he sign up for a shift with Blackwater?
If not then no it isn't as previous service is not relevant to sending troops to Iraq over a bunch of lies.

No as they would be conflict specific examples which is why they work as the whole topic is conflict specific.

It is the people who still carry on the lies about the conflict that are the ones dishonouring the sacrifices.

"Source of government propaganda" lol this government is the source itself. Indeed Penn is more or less neutral, the IPA (institute of public accuracy) is indeed different than the phased media, and Hollywood military advertising films.
You obviously haven't even seen it. The propaganda is just like it has always been, and you, like millions before you, just do not want to know about it and what is really happening. The government cannot lie, unless it is Obama lol.
And a socialist dictator ? What do you mean - Salvador Allende, the democratically elected president of Chile, unfortunately a socialist who died 9/11, 1973, during the putsch of this other dictator Pinochet ?

If it's Sean Penn you're talking about then i'm sure the socialist dictator is Chavez. I understand they're quite cozy with each other.

You know, I wonder how long it will be before we can discuss the Iraq War rationally without all this endless childish, moralising posturing from either side. The war is over and the troops have gone home.

The war may have been a mistake, history will be the judge, but then what war is not a mistake. I'm sure the Germans also regret starting WW2.

I have read a number of books on the war, although the historical research is still embryonic. One interesting book which I read recently is the U.S. Army's official history on OIF which is available on line:


http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/OnPointI.pdf

It only deals with the first phase to the fall of Baghdad, but it really shows you the competence and professionalism of U.S. troops. This is in sharp contrast to the performance of the Russian Army in the 2008 Georgian War which was much more amateurish:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/p.../mcdermott.pdf

...anyway, I will let you kids go back to your playpen...:ping:

Good luck. WW2 ended in 1945 and it's still a hot-topic in my country. If you gave us all guns a 55 faction civil war would begin because of that damn war.

To be fair, there is a grain of truth in that Sean Penn film in that it's very rare that a politician will give the full true reason for going to war with a nation, with a few exceptions. War is rarely a popular thing, so politically you have to dress it up to make it look acceptable to the people who voted you in to office. Thus satisfying them, whilst solidifying the strategic agenda that you have for this war.
In regards to the invasion of Iraq, one can only presume that the initial goals were to disrupt the flow of weapons to Al'Qaeda, create a pro-American state in order to counter Iran, and to shake things up in the Middle East enough that it disrupts any co-ordinated plans against America that had been formulating. Oil may have factored into the equation as well, because let's face it, it's an important strategic resource, just about everything we use runs on it, and every nation which is a strong importer of it is doing their best to secure supplies, China in Africa for example and their quiet support of Iran.
Wars are rarely about bettering society, or preserving lives, if that was the case then we'd be seeing F-18s over Damascus right now.

So where does that leave the average GI Joe? Stuck in the middle of course, they do their job for President and Country, and they do it damn well. They don't question why they're doing it because if you start doing that then the whole structure of the military breaks down, it's been like this since organised military forces came about...as Tennyson put it in the Charge of the Light Brigade "Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die."
Was the war in Iraq just? Perhaps, perhaps not. There are many examples of just and in-just wars depending upon the viewpoint of the nations involved, in the Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941 who was truly the bad guy? Hitler who murdered millions or Stalin who murdered millions?

Stalin, of course. He had bigger moustache. :yep:

I stand corrected! :haha:

Hello, guys...

To clear up a probable misconception about the intent of my statement that prompted Sailor Steve's response (Hi, Steve hope the gig went well); I was not saying that August was not willing to sacrifice other lives but not his own. I was trying (unsuccessfully, it sems) to make the point that many people who beat the drums of war appear to not really take into account the very real toll of human life and injury their fervent jingoism entails when put into action. When 9/11 happened, I told a number of my fellow employees and others I was happy Ashcroft, Rumsfeld and Cheney were in their positions as I felt, by reputation, they would be highly effective in running both the war on terror and homeland security matters. Boy, was I wrong. As the conduct of the war seemed to further deteriorate; the impession of confusion and lack of direction further grew; and the spectacle of commanding officers, in the field and knowledgeable, being replaced for voicing their concerns (and these were consistent, legitimate, unaddressed concerns), I began to look deeper into the background of these men and others of their ilk. I was somewhat surprised to discover not a single one of them ever served a single day in the military and had actually sought out and recieved deferments from military draft induction. Cheney, when asked why he had sought a deferment said, "I had better things to do." These are the men who were overseeing the conduct of the war and its senior officers. They chose to treat the military as expendable and the casualties, as how Kissinger might have put it, "acceptable". I do not mean to say they would not sacrifice their lives themselves, but they seem to tend towards looking a war as a balance sheet of numbers and not human lives. There have in recent years been released recordings made in the White House (by the same recording system that brought don Nixon, ironically) of LBJ's conversations with various people where he agonized over his send of troops to continue the war in Vietnam. He was not concerned about costs, political image, or any other such matters. He was genuinely and humanly worried about what it meant it terms of the lives of "the boys". This concern was also a large part of his decision not to run for a second term. I did not agree with LBJ on many matters, but I have always respected his personal integrity and ability to put the nation's interests ahead of his own political interests. Sadly, the people who were in charge of the conduct of this current war and its two fronts have neither the empirical experience nor the seeming compassion for the human cost to really be in a position to make make those kind of decisions. It's easy to waste water when you don't have to dig the well or raise the buckets...

Very true, if you sign up...

Those of my and Sailor Steve's age remember the Draft. The vestiges still suvive in the requirement for all males to register when they reach 18 years, but there has been any active conscription since 1973. Some men in our age group didn't have the option of not "signing up". The other option was exile or prision, if you didn't qualify for a deferment or if you didn't have "connections". The draftees of that era were, to most of the "Hawks" at the time, expenedable numbers, not men. As long as "goddless communisim" was kept at bay (and defense contractors made a profit), they were an acceptable "cost of war/business". The men who died and suffered for that war as unoptioned conscripts deserve all the benefits this country can give them...

The men and women who serve now in the all volunteer armed forces deserve better than to be merely part of a tally sheet; they deserve more than just casual consideration as human beings; they deserve leadership that knows and understands what they might go through in the conduct of their duties; and they deserve the knowledge that the leadership considers sending the in harm's as if they were sending themselves or their children in harm's way. I don't think it is too much to ask on their behalf...

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Hello August,
So you or Captain Haplo say Penn has an agenda - ok :hmmm:
I do not know much of Sean Penn's personal preferences, however i think in this clip he just speaks out the obvious. Most is being said by the politicians who were in charge, at the time.

Maybe there is a connection that the hawks see true reason = treason :-?

You might want to do some research on this guy before you start championing him Catfish.

I was worried that I might be taking you the wrong way, and that I might be taken the wrong way myself, which is why I tried to continually use the word "seeming" in my references. (It went pretty well, considering not one person I invited showed up). I was upholding August's defense of his own service, though I disagree with his beliefs on this.

And here's where I jump ship. I consider myself a coward. I don't think I was in any danger of getting drafted, but I didn't know that at the time, and I "volunteered" for the Navy because I didn't want to get drafted into the Army. That I ended up in a combat zone doing fire support for the Marines was through no fault of my own. I came home firmly against that war.

An excellent point. All too often decisions are made by those who never consider the consequences.

Indeed. One would be foolish to disregard a message just because it came from an unfavorable messenger. Or, at least that is what the Bible says.

You ended up in a combat zone, but you didn't shirk your obligation: no coward, in my opinion. A lot of guys came home firmly against that war. It's kind of like that old Packard Motors ad, "Ask the Man Who Owns One". At least you didn't join the Air national guard and spend your time making "champagne flights" around the South USA...

I like the way you put "volunteered" in quotes; For a lot of 1-A's, the Navy and the Air force were seen as safer options. Sometimes they weren't. In San Francisco, there was another danger: getting "drafted" into the Marines. A fellow classmate of mine told me that after the group of draftees he was in finished taking the oath and the step, a door opened in the room, out came a couple of Marine Officers and NCOs. They went up and down the ranks of draftees, selecting those who were of better than average physical condition. My clasmate, being of sleder build, was bypassed, much to his relief. I have heard similar stories of "instant Marines" from other people over the years. To be absolutley fair, the new Marines still had to pass boot camp just like the enlistees. I have not been able to find out what happened to those whoe failed the Corps' boot camp. Were they discharged or transferred back to Army units?...

Sorry about the non-attendance at your gig. Are you going to post clips, if any? I was not going to be able to watch the live stream anyway, but things took a sharp turn for me last Friday; I wound up in an ER due to a severe violent illness. The tests run on me pointed to a viral infection; they also pointed out a couple of potentially serious conditions I wasn't aware of even being suffering. All in all not a great day...

BTW, if you have to go to an ER in Los Angeles, have them take you to Cedars Sinai Hospital. The staff there is really top notch and very attentive. They have the nicest, most well organized ER operation I have ever seen. It's almost worth getting ill just to go there...

(I said "almost"... :D)

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