Sky replied in my defense, and I am appreciative of it. There's nothing worse on an internet forum than someone putting words in your mouth. Sky has been on the recieving end of this sort of thing in the past, and I cannot fault him for responding to it when he sees it. I don't think he meant anything as an insult. If anything, he was trying to smooth things out.

:haha:


Seriously...
Women are very disciplined ...when things have to be done ...it will be done no matter what.

More like some women are very disciplined just as some men are and any person in certain type military would likely be very disciplined.The practice in the US military is for those who are married to be placed in differing units to avoid any possible conflict of interest.The military structure is set up so that one obeys lawful correct orders given to them if an NCO or officer gives you an order you obey it there is no why must I do that sir? Look at Silent Hunter you tell the crew to do something and they follow the order.

Some argue that merely having women present some how will distract males this is a bogus argument many men are married or have families away far away from them one could argue that they might refuse to do something for the same reasons but the overwhelming majority do not.

@Takeda Shingen you say that the military should show objective advertisements why should they when no one else does? You will never see a Coke add with a obese man suffering from diabetes from drinking too many Cokes even though that happens.Nor will see a Ford add that shows something on the car breaking and needing repair or a person dying in a car accident all things that could happen.

As you say advertisers advertise because advertising is effective the goal of military advertising is to get someone to go to a recruiting office simply because they do so does not mean that they will actually enlist many many people wind up changing their minds and not joining.

There is nothing said or implied in this thread that justifies that statement.

If Takeda has displayed contempt for anything, it is how the advertising trivializes the army experience, and what is actually asked of our men and women who do enlist.

I didn't say that they should. And you are right, of course they don't tell the whole story. Who wants to drink Coke if they are showing the after effects of diabetes and obesity? No one. They want you to buy the product. I just think that a lot of the military's problem in this particular case is that they have sold the Army, for example, as a place where a 'soldier of one' can go and fight on the front line and then make something of himself. Women now want to be that person. And who doesn't? I still want to be that incredibly attractive man drinking the Coke.

Well actually the Army slogan is "Army Strong" is was for a while "Army of one" both of which obviously are used to imply strength though not necessarily male strength they stopped using the "Army of One" slogan after only a few years I am assuming because it seems to overly imply strength of one person and not a group.Actually I think you have it wrong to be honest "Army Strong" is actually a fairly good slogan because it does not really specify any given sex and suggests the notion of being a part of and adding to the strength of the Army and I bet since they pay companies to make advertising they also put alot of research into it.I have never seen an Army add that only showed male only jobs like Infantry they always show several different jobs in most adds so when they say show a helicopter flying even an AH-64 any woman if she passed the training could fly that aircraft. The only branch that has truly shown a male only add is the Navy which has shown adds on TV and in print for the Navy SEALs which is male only.Marine Corps adds tend to focus heavily on esprit de corps.I dont really know for others I was in the Air Force but the topic comes up very often"Why did you join the Air Force(or x branch)?" and I never heard once any person say "The advertising was freaking amazing man that one add and that was it!" ,The real reason is they actually wanted to be in the military and they had a very good idea the risks or they did not want to go to college right away or they wanted to try something challenging in some way.And hard as it may seem to be to believe to some there are actually people for which the military is the only escape from gang life or other bad situation.




Also you should be aware that is the US Army the generic term used to address all members is solider it has no sex specific meaning in their definition.
In other words a cook is a soldier a truck driver is a solider a clerk is a soldier an infantryman is a solider.Not every male that joins the military is going to be in a combat job either.The process has already started really way back in 1975 which is when women where allowed to do a huge amount of jobs that they could before(this was for a long time a trickle I knew a E-9 (top enlisted woman she another woman where the only females in EOD in the USAF for 3 or 4 years back in 1975) the next step was female pilots in combat units now you have females in I suppose the word would be indirect combat roles on the ground in another few years they will be allowed into combat units in fact this is already occurring women are already in combat engineer and EOD(Explosive Ordnance Disposal which in current times is very front line) so it is only a matter of time soon the military adds will be at least a little more objective or at least honest to women.

The Air force is a much more detached military fighting group in today's wars.

A fighter pilot doesnt have to stare down the sights of a rifle and watch the victim's head get shot off. Not to say that fighter pilots shouldnt and dont have the feeling of remorse, or the sense that they just took someones life, but its one thing to see it in the air, then to see it happen before your eyes. Same goes for the Navy. At this point in history, when the major military powers are at peace with each other, and full scale naval/air/ground combat is not a reality, Personnel in the Navy and Air force are extremely critical, but less of a liability for woman when the underlying areas of concern arise.

The USAAF and the Navy is a much more suitable area for woman to play their role in. Pushing through all the political correctness, the army and marines are destructive, dangerous, and very taxing fields. Theres too much potential for abuse. Assuming we allow them to serve frontline, we cannot cave in, and make sure that physical requirements do not change simply because of the fact that some cant meet them.

Woman obviuosly have the ability. But you cant ignore the problems that may arise when woman are put in the thick. Make sure they are fit, like every military personnel, and make sure that abuse does not take place.

You may be right in the sense that the Army, in particular, is in a constant effort to improve their advertising slogan. In the 1980's, before 'Army of One' it was 'Be all that you can be; get an edge on life in the Army', which was sung in a very catchy tune that I can still sing to this day. As a kid growing up then, the commercials had quite an influence on me. I wasn't the only one.

Unfortunately as soon as combat arms school graduation percentages by gender do not match their enrollment numbers the claims of gender bias will surely arise. Then the military will cave to civilian political pressure like they always do and lower the standards.

But apparently it was not influential enough to make you actually sign up though so your big problem with official TV depictions of guys running around the woods with guns is really disingenuous. I read that as contempt for the folks who have served their country but in light of your own lack of military service I will concede that maybe it's just ignorance.

You can read it any way you like. It doesn't make it true, nor do your continued ad hominem attacks concern me at this point. As I have successfully refuted your points time and time again, I think that it best to simply state that your contempt is noted; best to move forward, yes?

If I expressed myself ill, or led you to believe my words trifling I should be most concerned. I am glad to know your attention is directed, of the success I have no doubt. :cool: However, I confess myself not pleased as the interest of opinions varies will, I doubt not, dispose members within this debate to defend their posts to the last. For the man you know (sky) I have always entertained much esteem, but it is his post to August that I observed circumstances had indeed multiplied upon him as he had typed. Your character, capacity, and friendship can not but make you an object of his respect and attention, let it favour and at all events oblige you. :03: Though It threw the debate.

Army does not make you by default a man with the coce.
It may give you the some tools.
Weather you use them or not is up to you.
Studying at university... or whatever... not necessarily make one more successful than other.

I know what you are saying; that what you learn is more valuable than what credentials you recieve. I agree with you there. However, what you said about universities is a bad example. College and university graduates can expect to make, on average, twice as much during their lifetime as those who only hold a high school diploma by nature of the fact that the employer is specifically looking for a degree.

In some cases yes in other not but on average is probably true.
Same thing is with army.
You may have some opportunities depending on who you are and you may get to know yourself the hard way.
As far as field service, the gains may be on personal level or/and credentials for civil life.
Depends where and what you been doing or how far you climbed the ladder.
Normally this may give you good start but it is not substitute for civil education.

It may also put things into some proportions for some facebook kids.:O:

..and somebody has to do it...then again it would be much better if no one would have to do it.:doh:

USA has no immediate threats to its existence but needs army.
The obvious choice is to sell it as a career.
At least nobody is forcing you to join and drink the Coke.

When looking at army in cynical way it is over glorified bull^% with lots of extreme side effects but also necessary evil.
Certainly not all is bad about it though.



...............

Much of what you said does not really make that much sense.The USAF and US Navy are by a massive margin more destructive than Army and Marines because they both are part of the nuclear arm.I would also disagree on the combat pilots as well it all depends on where they are and the risks I have massive respect for anyone who flew against North Vietnam if you think that was not dangerous and stressful to any Air Force Navy or Marine pilot or air crew.Not to mention the great risks that Navy and Air Force air rescue units risked.Or the men that flew in B-17s and B-24s that was war just as much as it was to any infantry man getting body parts and heads blown off by flak and enemy aircraft cannon shells what an easy and envious job oh and they also have to wait 5,6,7 hours to even get any real medical aid at least the infantry man got aid fairly rapidly in most cases.And most infantry men do not actually see a person head get blown off that is very Hollywood they do see the results after the battle true.

You seem to be confused by what dangerous is combat is dangerous but so is working with heavy and complex machinery or working on a flight line(x 10 on a carrier) and EOD when fighting a foe that makes heavy use of IEDs is very dangerous.In my very much rear line job in the Air Force I was nearly killed or seriously injured by either being crushed,getting burned alive by a stuck aircraft counter measures flare and I was never near any enemy.I find your opinion that the Air Force and the Navy are not "taxing" as if all of the jobs are easy trust me they are not.If you had to do my old Air Force job for one day first you'd sleep for a day or two afterwords then you'd wake up and say, "Man that was taxing!" this would be true for many non combat jobs in the military Air Force and Navy included.I hate to say this but I bet that any of the female airman that I knew in my job in the Air Force would put you in your place real fast I'd love to you try and pull a 6 ton aircraft jack and hook it the back of a truck like anyone in my old job has to do or pull and hook up any other equipment to a truck and you have to this all day for 9 hours(12 in a war zone) by yourself lets not even mention all the knuckle busting wrench turning you have to do it is such hard work you dont need to go bench press or do curls at the gym you just did it all day.Sorry but your post really screams out your level naivety to me I can think of many jobs in military that you probably think are easy that in fact require very hard work.Sure an Army or Marine Infantryman has a hard job but so are many of the jobs that support them.

As I said women are already in EOD a very dangerous and difficult field and field in which basically you have no half wits or partly capable members.

Honestly I do not really care what the color of a persons skin or their creed or their sex if they want to do something in the military and they can pass the training I say let them do it.Before I was in the military I felt very different about women to be honest what I saw from most in the military greatly changed my mind it is the persons mindset their desire to work hard not what color they are or what sex they are.I can recall once when I was training this young woman the in and outs of flight line duty she was very small and I thought to myself "This one is going to flake for sure" we get a call for 4 of the 6 ton aircraft jacks which only have these giant casters for wheels and weigh a good bit you can hook up to 3 of them to the back of a truck (the 6 tons is the load that it can take but many of you know just how much a shop car jack weighs so you can guess what a jack that holds up of C-5 might weigh) She asked how you transported the jacks and I said "watch me" I walked up and pulled one up the truck and I figured that this woman might as well try to move one herself so I told her to try the next one fairly certain that shed need my help but she pulled it Talk about underestimating someone I have seen some fairly fit men struggle with moving the jacks the first time.

OK now I am going to take a break and enjoy my vacation I am a long way from Florida.