ok, I will tell when it started: i posted a bit playful and maybe unnecessary comment about "metal girls" with the stress on "metal" which he correctly recognized and started this "not scientific" plus laughing after Skybird's post. So I payed him back.

I am sure that you didn't mean any harm to DarkFish, but you'd have to admit that, given the context, your comment could be taken as pretty hostile. Really, it is just one of those things that have to be given some space. It will cool down.

By the way, your English is excellent. I wish that I could speak a word of Polish.

decided to pay back? Geez, what is this, kindergarten? Please don't act like that. It's really not appropriate for a civil forum and a serious topic.


Meanwhile, the video of the official Russian report can be seen here in full:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucfMbPt8xRw

Anyone?

Bueller?



Bueller?

probably bcoz it was a military airfield and couldn't be closed by the decision of the ground control. I remember a discussion about this issue and as far as I remember that if it was a civil airfield it could have been closed but as it was a military one the decision had to be made much earlier (before the plane took off).
It was closed for sth like a half a year but opened before 7th and 10th of April only for those two Polish visits

Kranz,
Before today (or maybe yesterday) I can't remember I've ever seen you as not nice, so I guess it's just because you're probably a little heated right now for whatever reason. As such, I won't feel offended and I really hope you can let go whatever bothers you.

BTW, please understand that the ROFL smiley I posted was not directed at you, but more at the situation. It's pretty funny IMO if someone reappears on someones ignore list within an hour. It was not my intention to laugh at you, and if you feel as if I did, I apologize.

You mean the "then we're finally rid of you:DL"? If the smiley didn't give away that I didn't really mean it, the "On a serious note" in the next line should have.
If you mean my reaction on your post, I really felt assaulted by what you posted. You made a very risky joke, I responded to it. If you play with fire, you should be prepared to get burned.
BTW this also goes for unkind and offensive posts. If you reply in an unfriendly manner, you shouldn't be surprised if someone reprimands you about it.

Anyway, I hope you learned your lesson and try to be a little more friendly in the future. Whatever buggers you in your private life, it's no reason to take it out on forum members.

First of all, this is by far not the first time I've heard about the crash. When it happened a few months ago, it was all over the news, and also all over subsim.
Second, the things you mention are indeed suspicious. But conducting another investigation of your own just to change the outcome isn't exactly professional either. Why should we believe any of the Polish investigations are not gonna be just as biased as the Russian one?

Euhm, just a question, but RT (Russia Today)... is that not thé Pro Russian propaganda TV Station which broadcast around the world?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-2083869.html

A former cold war "agent" i met in Budapest ones told me: The Russians can lie that well, that even the opposite is not true:hmmm:.

Hmm... so a civilian agency investigates a matter involving a military airfield and a civilian air transport crash attempting to land there, in weather that would have closed an equivalent civilian general aviation field. Seems... unnecessarily complicated.

welcome to east europe:D

Pilot error for sure ... or someone higher said, "Go for it"

Try the same thing in FSX and feel your waste material bunching in your guts as you try to land.

and here is the problem: there are two types of flights: civilian and military. Different countries and their forces have different regulations about classifying flight as a civilian or military. In civilian flights it is the pilot, who in terms of law and air regulations, takes FULL responsibility for every part of the flight. The ground control cannot force him to change his decisions. If he lands and violated the rules he would take the legal responsibility. When the flight is classified as a military one the responsibility is also is divided between both the pilot and the ground controller. And here is the legal problem of this crash. The Polish side from the very beginning claimed that it was a military flight: VIPs on board, HEAD status according to international regulations, military airfield, military character of the unit which gave the plane, military pilots. The Russians said yesterday that it was a civilian flight.

yeah, that's how it looks here. Haven't you ever crossed on the red light? Here, we do it all the time. (no pun intended)

true. And I'm not going to tell you- it's the Russians fault. Coz simply it wasn't like this. But there are plenty of unanswered questions for which the only answer from the Russian side was: we can;t give you the tape coz it's damaged. We can't give you the ground controllers' first version of the testimonies coz they were regarded as "invalid"-they were replaced by testimonies given much later after the crash.
Comming back to what joegrundman said: I guess it was in June or July, don't remember exactly. The crew of Jak-40, who landed before Tu-154 have testified and I guess it was confirmed by the record from the plane(dunno-radio only or the "blackbox" recorder) that the Polish pilot was told about the bad weather in smolensk he said: yeah, bad weather, look how "best of the best" can/will land". He used a popular colloquialism in that transmission which sounded better than the "best of the best" translation but it actually shows how some ppl treat serious matters. I guess you call it "bravado".

Pilot fault in ANY case, no matter what somebody higher has said. For the duration of the flight, the plane captain has the final say, always. It is his obligation to assess the situation and to make the final decision on what to do. Nobody aboard the plane, not even an air force general, should tell him what to do. Nor should the flying pilot and plane commender take it.

This is no cheap name-calling, or easy blaming of the pilots. After all, they also payed their mistake with their lives. But it seems that no matter the framing circumstances they allowed to give in to any kind of direct or indirect pressure that intimidated them sufficiently so that they acted the way they did - probably even against their experience and professional assessment. This cannot have been caused Russian control on the ground, it can only have come from aboard the plane. Why should they have feared some Russian ground controller?

The pilots seem to have heared of the event happening earlier, where there also was a flight diversion to an alternate, and Kaczynski went mad about it. But even with that knowledge they should have sticked to their own experience and assessedment, and nobody else's. They flew the plane - not Kaczynski, not his advsior,and not the air force general.

I assume that if the Russians added to the messing up of events, they wopuld try to hide it. They have a record to blame the pilot in case of air disasters. But in this case I see little room how they could have contributed decisive influence to causing the accident. It still remains the pilot's fault, caused by allowing to get intimidated in a way.

It is more a psychological failure than a lack of skills or experience, I think.

On the other hand, if nobody told the pilots what to do and they decided freely to attempt the landing, they obviously freely choosed to do the wrong thing. Which again would make it a pilot's fault.

I'm late to the party but please keep it civil.

seems impossible to me. Why? the guru of all psychologists boarded on 01-13-2011 05:15 PM. So I promise that it will NOT be civil unless he gives a quotation from the black box record (plenty of pdfs on the net) supporting what he said. I'll stop here for now giving him time to find what he was asked for.

Well Kranz, I now give formal warning that if it is not kept civil as you are threatening I will shut down the thread and hand out infractions.