What part of the Russian provocation you dont people understand? This started when from Ossetia artillery shelled on thurday. Now by international law Ossetia and Abkhasia are part of Georgian territory, end of discussion! That Russia backs these tribalists with their own private armies, and that base their economy on smuggling, is clear intervention in the matters of a nother sovereign nation. The Ossetian puppet leader Eduard Kokoity has even stated that "the Georgian-Ossetian conflict was not an inter-ethnic, but clearly a political one caused by Georgia’s desire to impose on Ossetians the norms of Western democracy which could not be superior to the Caucasian traditional laws" . We have good info in Finland about the area as Finns have big role in the OSCE mission in Georgia. They have told that Georgians have been very keen on a peacefull settlement while the ossetians have not wanted talk for a time, even when Georgia offers broad autonomy to Ossetia. Georgia has genuinely co-operated with OSCE and EU to create a democratic society based on rule of law, this is more than can be said of Russia. And anything that happened in Eduard Shevardnadzes time in power of Georgia can hardly be blamed on the present goverment. Did anyone watch the UN security council meeting i posted? Do people understand how good KGB/FSB are at manipulating even Western media?

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems. Then you can enjoy your freedom from Russia in a nuclear winter. Sorry, but in a nuclear age, the old WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore. If I have the choice between nuclear holocaust and a russian dominated baltic, I take the russian dominated baltic, thank you. It is scary how pathological hatred works, you should've thought the world moved away from that now. This baltic/polish/ukrainian thing with russians is almost as bad as the arabian attitude towards Israel.

My thoughs exactly! :up:

Umm... no. But should the western world just sit and watch how Georgia is attacked by Russia in cover of "helping fellow russians"? Like Happy Times said, SO is part of Georgia! No one forces the pro-Russian ppl to live there if they dont like it, move to Russia ffs! Russia has no business in Georgia.

So thats the ultimate reason you Germans seem willing to forget international law and sacrifice small nations.:doh:
All the small nations between Russia and your country have seen the total war, its qquite an accusation to make. But we should fight if Russia starts invading its neighbours, what is the option? Russia says it will protect it citizens were ever they may be, is Baltics the next target? Russia accused Finland this year for human rights violations for not granting official minority status to the small Russian minority that has only excisted less that 20 years!
But we know none of you would fight for us so we keep ourselves prepared.
And like Type941 said and i have said for years there are similarities in the rise of the Third Reich and modern Russia.

Are you serious!! Your selling us allready for you oil and gas! The Arab-Israeli comparison fits the otherway around! If that is a widepread attitude in Europe we should start building our own nukes right away..:roll:

Actually, yes
WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore.
In WW2, the worst thing that could happen was that Hitler conquered the world.
Well, the world then was conquered, but still existing.
In the nuclear age, a WW2 sized confrontation could still mean the end of the world.
It seems, since the baltic republics and eastern Europe kind of missed the last 50 years, that this truth hasn't arrived there yet.
The US administration knows that truth, that's why its condemnations are weaker than those by Yeltsin over Kosovo. Great powers do not commit suicide for small allies.
And in regards to international law and the integrity of nations, the US pretty much squashed this principle in the last ten years. It does not exist anymore.
I suppose the best end of that confrontation could be something like "you stay out of Ossetia and we stay out of Estonia" compromise.
It is simply an attitude problem: You cannot endlessly provoke your neighbours, as current eastern european nations do. Hell Kaczisky managed to piss off even the germans!
Now the russians have to endure that continous bickering from around ten nations.
Russia's government is evil. Maybe, but isn't that up to the russian people?
To me, much of it is simply clear-cut idiot nationalism. If you are a young nation, you constantly have to remind yourself why you exist and that works best if you have an enemy.
Yeah, but of course russians are inferior to you etc etc....
Sorry, but the whole baltic are should get off its high horse and start to live with Russia.
Morally justified or not, the US cannot afford another 12 Israels, if you put yourself into that position.
When Germany was defeated, France made a step towards Germany and worked out a good relationship that overcame 400 years of more or less continued warfare.
I suppose the whole former soviet block missed out that chance for the sake of cheap nationalism.

Let's not start a flame war between anti-Russians and non-anti-Russians, gentlemen, I read through enough crap over on Militaryphotos yesterday trying to sift out a bit of sense from it all. If you want pro-Russian statements, you should go and check that out. :damn:
So, let's just stick to the facts, whenever we get any. :damn:

Hitler and Stalin killed MILLIONS in genocides without nukes!
Maybe we all should just give in and join Russia and let them conduct their Russification without resistance, yeah right..:roll:

:rotfl:

Come get some!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...FightsBack.jpg

Sticking to the facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)
A good summary of all that is known sofar.
What is not there is the apparent involvement of the Black Sea Fleet, reported on CNN
Maybe the Poti strike was a naval, not airborne attack

You know, I could go to Wikipedia and write that it was Nigeria that started the war. :roll:

The media isnt sure who started it, we get mixed reports depending of the source. All we can do is speculate and guess.

Hmm, coincidence? I don't think so. Sure they weren't scoping you out, ready to lauch the attack when you're indisposed? ;)

edit. Don't mean to make fun of a serious subject.

Swedish Foerign Minister Carl Bildt on Georgia-Russia War

Statement of Carl Bildt, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Sweden

Russia's justification of its offensive deeply ominous

"The Russian offensive against and in Georgia is an act of aggression that is incompatible with international law and fundamental principles of security and cooperation in Europe," says Minister for Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt in a statement on Saturday.

"We - and Russia - will have to live with the consequences of Russia's use of force for a long time to come.

"The justification given by Russia is that it is protecting Russian nationals, but the obligation to protect people - irrespective of their nationality - lies with the state in which those individuals are located. No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state.

"Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past - and that is why it is so important that this doctrine is emphatically dismissed. The same doctrine can be equally dangerous in other situations.

"We did not accept military intervention by Milosevic's Serbia in other former Yugoslav states on the grounds of protecting Serbian passport holders. And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe.

"It is important now to demand an immediate end to the bombing raids, immediate withdrawal of the Russian troops that have entered Georgia and the establishment of political contacts to bring about a peaceful solution. As chair of the OSCE, Finland has a particularly important role to play."

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?o...5571&Itemid=65

Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.

Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:
Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;
Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;
It is pointlessness to continue a “visa facilitation” program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.
The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

We underline the obvious bankruptcy of Russian “peacekeeping operations” in its immediate neighbourhood. The Russian Federation has overstepped a red-line in keeping the peace and stability in the conflict zone and in protecting Russian citizens outside its own borders.

The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.

We regret that not granting of the NATO’s Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for agression in the region.

We believe that the EU and NATO as the key organizations for European and Transatlantic stability and security should play a leading and crucial role in securing freedom, security and prosperity of countries not only in the EU but also in the neighboring European area.

It a litmus-test for the credibility of the EU and NATO to solve the conflict in its immediate neighborhood and to prove for all EU and NATO members, aspirant countries and democratic partners that it is worth being members and partners of these organizations.

This Declaration is open for the accession by the leaders of other democratic countries.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?o...5572&Itemid=65