The only thing that matters is will the major bugs and unfinished or missing features ever be fixed? No one really knows for sure. I'm sure that there will be at least one or two patches released, but we don't really know what will be fixed in those patches. If major problems and features are not fixed in their patches, then we are screwed, because most of these problems people are complaining about are hard-coded and modders won't be able to fix most of them. In other words, if Ubisoft doesn't fix these problems in a patches, they probably won't ever be fixed due to hard-coding.

You're kidding, right? I hope you're not trying to make a case that Falcon4 was not a commercial product. Non lucrative organizations? Do you have any clue how much time and money was poured into the original release by first Spectrum Holobyte and then Microprose????

LOL! But I can't help it. I always get the vapors when a new sub sim comes out.... :oops:

Considering the core parts of the game are based on SH3, I'd say we had the shakedown cruise 2 years ago. And also considering Ubi themselves said in one of the developer videos that since that is so, the will only need to be upgraded within a condensed development schedule - it comes direct from the horses mouth. This should've been a piece of piss really, but once again they went gold and rushed to release it the moment the initial coding was done, with very little time - if any as far as we can tell - spent seriously debugging it, beta testers or not.

Unfortunately, this works well for soccer games and 1st person shooters, but not for naval simulations :down: I'm the first one to support that procedure when it can be applied. It is certainly reasonable, but in naval simulations the deal is different: You either get this now and support the Devs to patch it, or you don't get nothing at all. NOTHING. Someone else will jump on the train? Can you name at least one? Who has showed interest in doing a submarine simulation in recent years besides UBI?

Here is a fact: SH3 came with bugs, and we got four patches later covering the essentials. It sold well, and UBI did a SH4 with huge potential for modders.

Here is another fact: Nobody else did a submarine game in the SH3 style in all those years. Let alone a bug-free one.

Let me suggest a different approach: Show support and positive critizism, so that UBI keeps interest in our market, and may be another company sees that a market with loyal and positive customers is one that even though small might be worth investing in. :yep:

Just imagine you were an EA marketing guy and were looking around in these forums to see the response of the "average" customer to the release of SH4. Would you think this is a business worth stepping in for EA? Or would you take a look at the "I cancelled my order" thread and decide submarine simulations are no good? :damn:

EDITED TO ADD:

I think a comparison of John's arguments and yours is pretty self-explanatory. No further comments on that needed.

FYI moderators stick to the web's official policy, which in the case of commenting and critisizing SH4 tries to be neutral, respecting negative critizism but encouraging positive one. John was asked to further explain his position and so he did, nothing else.

Considering EA own 20% of Ubi they wouldn't go head-to-head and they'd probably be thinking "hey they do just like us", before going back to count how the sales figures.

Likewise I don't see why moderators are prohibited from openly supporting the game!

Why not? I'm a very minor mod, but I always very openly supported SHIII and IV, and I never saw harm in that. Likewise I also endorsed certain mods for SHIII.

I think the moderators have been playing a good balancing role here. This thread is a 'reality check' to try and stem some of the negativity. I think criticism and negativity are different thing. I think one can tear apart SHIV's software downfalls without attacking any companies or individuals involved, and without making it sound like a disaster of some sort.

I think the amount of criticism is also disproportional to the value of an $50 game. I'd love to hear of a better way that someone who wants a good subsim to spend 50 bucks (assuming they already have SHIII) :p

Well maybe someday, in the not so distant future, there will come a point where games can consistantly be released in better shape than they currently are. I don't really know how or when that may happen, but it certainly would be a welcome site for sure. Maybe there just needs to be a new set of rules and standards which all developers/publishers must follow. In the mean time, we'll continue to have these bitch sessions and wait for patches. :roll:

As I am prohibited by a NDA I cannot go into any details other than to say that your assumptions and interpertations are wrong.

Sorry, but that's probably more than I should have said.

When viewing anything by the developers you have to remember that English is not their native language, and idiom can be a bitch.

JCC

Damn it's fun when I'm right about having patience and faith.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108143

JCC

[quote=Hitman]A good post from Hitman. Like others, my copy of the sim is still in the post, but, again like others, I've been through all this many times over the years.

The one thing to remember about Ubisoft - and it is something that is often overlooked - is that virtually no other major games company has done quite so much for simulations over the last few years. SH2, 3 and 4, Lock On and all the various IL2 guises have come from that stable. At times their actions and policies have seemed rather dismissive of their customers but they are still putting these sims out. There are other companies who make sims but i doubt many of them have invested nearly as much money as Ubi have regardless of whether it is simply from publishing or from development. While it would be nice to have all our favourite sims created by hardcore indy enthusiasts with infinite funds, it isn't going to happen. I'm quite happy to applaud Ubi for still doing it.

Mind you, threatening not to buy the game because of resolution or FSAA issues seems entirely sensible compared to some things I've seen. I'm sure I remember just before SH3 came out there was one dude here who was refusing to buy it because a handrail on one of the models in a screenshot was different from a photo he had of it in a book....

I hear you there, I've spent over half my life living in countries where English certainly isn't native.

Wait.

It's only going into widespread release now.

JCC

More like Ubisoft is sponsored by Subsim :)

ACSoft, John's statement is professional and is in line with the stated pupose and policy of this forum.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq....ules3_faq_item

Moderators like John and Hitman are the main reason this forum is a civilised place that you may enjoy visiting, where people help each other and don't seek to fight at every turn. We are not a collection of ragtag ranters. We consider ourselves reasonably mature men. We do not follow the norm found in most forums of ranting and damning and piling on a game. We feel this leadership sets us apart. If you don't like the game, don't play it, move on. If you want to discuss the shortcomings of a game, fine. Be constructive. Be thoughtful. We support submarine game companies, all one of them. We may criticise, disagree or push for something, but we do it constructively.

I hope you understand, I am not attacking you, mate. Let's see what we can do to make Ubisoft improve SH4 and make the game successful, so there will be a market for... SHV.

thanks
Neal

Can you guarantee that? :)

I do not like the state of the business either, unfinished games, patches. But it has been this way for as long as I can remember. If anyone has a strategy that will solve this, I am all ears. But there is also risk involved. Making a really good sim like SH4 costs millions in development cost and a lot of expertise. If it is such as attractive market, someone else would be doing it and they would not wait for the subsim community to reject and kill the Silent Hunter series.