Is this where we post issues with RFB? If not, I guess it can be deleted.

I was just given the dreaded "Gato-Class Curse" when using RFB. It was early 42, the boat was the Gato herself, and I had returned to port before completing the mission. I thought RFB fixed this issue.

Beery, can you look at the configs for the 1945 Balao? I've tried to start a 1945 career with the Balao at two different dates, and both times the game kicked me to the desktop when it attempted to load the mission (after the "where do you want to start from?) page. I think it has something to do with the radar loadout (maybe the SJ-1 radar), because this error doesn't happen before this equipment is installed. Thanks!

Escorts in RFB are unchanged from stock SH4. Escorts should be extremely ineffective, as in real life the chance of being killed in a US sub was about one in 50 patrols. In my experience in the game, Japanese escorts are about ten times more effective than they were in reality. The jury is still out on this issue, but I doubt we'll be making escorts tougher.

I believe the early explosions are a bug in stock SH4 - SH3 also had it.

If this is the bug I think it is, this is a bug with the standard game and it cannot be fixed without making serious dents in the mod's realism. We'll have to wait for the devs to fix it because I can't justify making early boats useable until the war's end (which is the only method that's been proven to fix it). To avoid the bug start on a Gato and if you're starting before the Gato is available think about how long you want your career to last, because if you start on an S-boat it's going to be cut short fairly early. Players who limit their career historically (i.e. to 8 patrols or less) should not see this bug very often unless they start late in an early war sub's service period.

I'll check them out as soon as I can - probably tomorrow. It's bound to be either a simple bug that I introduced when I was adding the later start dates or it's a stock game issue.

Beery, in addition to my post above: it seems this problem exists with not just the Balao, but any boat with the late-war radar (SJ-1 and improved SD). I've not made any changes to files that control the radar, so I dunno what could be causing these CTDs. I look forward to seeing if you can find the cause of the problem.

Beery, have you given any thought to increasing the durability of war ships? I only have one experience with a CVE, but it was a major downer. 2 contact fish and it went down. The 2nd hit did produce a rather large secondary explosion, but even so it's a bit off putting when it takes 3 or 4+ to sink some merchants, but a CVE goes down with 2.

Maybe it's just the CVE, any one have some in game experience with war ships eating a lot of torpedo hits and still going to reassure me?

I've never hit any SH4 CV with more than 2 toepedos to sink it. Not a CVE, a real CV (though I've yet to see Taiho since I made that a very unlikely occurence like Yamato).

It's a generalized problem, IMO.

Yes, I agree, but I was thinking about us little bit Berry and it passed my mind that real captain really make more than 6 patrols, sinking usually less than 100.000 BRT, encountering one convoy on 3 patrols it would be better to be forced to remain underwater longer because more aggressive escorts than in reality.
I am not quite convinced that it was so hard to be killed be escorts. Usually captains were attacking and running immediately after attack being bombarded anyway few hours after all.
What I am trying to say is to have some compromise, more kills more dangerous situation. What do you think about this guys?

Is it a problem, or is it more a reflection of the abysmal damage control present on most Japanese CVs? Didn't most of the CVs get sunk because of poor damage control?

Poor DC was endemic to the entire IJN. That said, 1 torpedo almost always sinks their fleet CVs. It only takes me 2 if one hits extremely far from MOT. 90% of the time 1 is enough. That's absurd.

From a post I made in Redwine's die slowly thread:

Some escort carrier info. These were converted merchants.

HIJMS Unyo:

19 January 1944:
Around noon, en-route, struck by three torpedoes from USS HADDOCK (SS-231) in position 12-12'N, 146-26'E. Forward section shattered.

20 January 1944:
Limp into Saipan for emegency repairs.


HIJMS Taiyo:
Hit twice by single torpedos and lived, but the 3d time her avgas tank blew, then she may have been hit by a 2d torpedo.

HIJMS Chuyo:
4 December 1943:
- At 0010, hit by in port bow magazine by torpedo from USS SAILFISH (SS-192) in position: 32-30'N, 143-40'E. Though magazine does not catch fire, the bow plates are torn and the forward part of the flight deck collapses. But the carrier is able to maintain headway, and in order to proceed, Captain Tomasaborou reverses direction and begins to steam backwards towards Yokosuka at half-speed.
- At 0555 is hit again by two torpedoes in the port engine room in a second attack. (Note 1) Ship is stopped dead in the water and unable to navigate - position: 31-55'N, 143-40'E. Destroyer URAKAZE and cruiser MAYA come to assist, and air cover from the homeland arrives overhead at dawn. Despite this aid, --
- At 0942 the ship is again attacked and hit by one or two torpedoes in the port side. Flooding massively, she now quickly rolled to port and plunged by the bow at 0948. As a result, loss of life was very heavy: Captain Tomasaborou and 513 officers and men, and more than 730 passengers went down with the ship. Among the lost twenty of the U.S. POWs from USS SCULPIN. Only one of the POWs survived to be rescued among the mere 160 survivors found by SAZANAMI and URAKAZE. (See Note 2)

^^^ at least 3, maybe 4 before she went down. She might have sunk with just the 1 or 2, but it certainly wouldn't be the instant sinkins we see.

Note that I have done no experiments at all with the 35k CV, Taiho since it is no unrepresentative of IJN CVs. She was lost to a single torpedo due to bad damage control.


CVs:

HIJMS Unryo:
19 December 1944:
Hit by one torpedo 1635 hours under the bridge from U.S. submarine REDFISH. UNRYU lost power and went dead in the water. While engineers extinguished fires and restored power in No. 8 boiler, carrier hit by second torpedo at 1650 hours starboard side, under forward elevator. Volatile cargo and av-gas set storage exploded, devastating vessel. Carrier sank quickly, in seven minutes with the loss of her captain, exec, navigator, and 1,238 petty officers and men. Only 1 officer. and 146 men survived the sinking to be rescued by SHIGURE which returned to Sasebo 22 December.

^^^ 2 torpedos in a CV that was a modified Soryu Class (called Hiryu Class in SH4 for some reason)

HIJMS Shokaku:
Shokaku was sunk by 3-4 torpedos. It was thought they would save her, but 2.5 hours after being hit a bomb in the hanger went off, and set avgas lines afire...


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The whole "instant sinking nonsense we see in SH4. Sure, maybe 1 hit would often kill a CV, the difference is that the ship should take hours for this to happen as they try and save her, then avgas catches fire later, etc. 1 torpedo followed by capsizing, every damn time gets old. I always fire all my tubes at a single CV just for the sake of realism, even though I know I can sink them with 1, it's dumb IMO. I'm fine with variability resulting in 1 hit kills, but I'd like to see it be less written in stone is all.

I wouldn't mind them only needing 2 or 3 torpedoes to sink if they would then take at least 20 minutes to sink. Seeing a carrier (even if it was a cve) take 2 hits and then go under in 15 seconds rubbed me the wrong way.

edit: we appear to be on the same page tater :arrgh!:

Yeah, exactly. It's the timing of the sinkings in gteneral that bother me. I actually see many merchants wallow and just sit there for a long time, sometimes I even put a fish in them to finish them off. That is very realistic. I've never had any CV do anything bu roll over and sink (plus some exploding and throwing planes off the deck).

Actually, the planes on deck are another peeve of mine since IJN CVs embarked all planes in the hanger spaces. On deck was what you'd see on Akitsu Maru which was a plane ferry, not a "CVE" as they call it (it actually wasn't a Navy ship at all, she (and her sisters) belonged to the IJA).

tater

I've applied just the indivudual zones files from Redwine's Die Harder mod for BBs and CAs, as they increase the hitpoints for those ships. Now that he's applied the same principle to CVs, CLs and hopefully the CVEs I will add them too.

Now, I've never actually been in a position to test these zone files, but it could be an option. He's only increased the hitpoints by 50 or 100 for certain compartments, so if my understanding of CriticalFlotality and whatever is correct, they should still sink, although much more slowly and requiring perhaps twice as many hits using RFB's torpedo values (Redwin's changes are meant to be used with his own increased torpedo values).

I've done this (and without testing!) becaused I've been dismayed by reports of CVs and Yamatos taking dirt naps with ridiculously low numbers of hits. And one day, when I'm actually in the position to shoot a capital ship, I don't want to be cheated of the victory by a pisspoor damage model. If it takes 4-5 fish to put down Shokaku, so be it.

Galanti, can you post the fix as a JSGME mod?

tater