Congratulations England so you finally did it :up:

Did everyone get drunk or what? :D

We'll see how the the SNP tackle the new reality:

Scottish independence: Sturgeon is trapped in a constitutional stalemate

Interpreting Nicola Sturgeon's subtle speech

Apparently there had to be a very heavy police presence in central Glasgow last night in order to keep the pro-EU and pro-Brexit demonstrations apart.:o

My main concern now is if anything nasty happens in Northern Ireland and whether or not it overspills into the Clyde Valley. There are a lot of cultural links between the two areas.:hmmm:

Mike.

First of all Sorry for my last comment.

I tried to be funny-based on all those doomsday and negative comment I had read on Danish and Swedish news page.

From what I understand it's not decided yet how much more Denmark and Sweden shall pay to EU, after UK have left EU.

As mentioned some pages back I know the Future of EU and France will be one of the solid member in a shrink version of EU.

In the year 2065 Europe are divided into a Blue fraction(a free cooperation between some forme EU-members and others state)

This fraction count:
UK(incl. Skotland*)Holland, Spain, Norway, Poland, Hungary, Baltic states(two of them), and some more-There will be 13 or 14 countries in this Blue fraction group

The Red Fraction count older and some new EU-states.
and count:

Germany, France, Sweden, Romania, Italy, one of the baltic states and some more.
It will be around 10-12 countries in this group.

* Scotland
Scotland will get their independent in 2028, but after 20 years of total economical failure and a total economical meltdown Bank(bankruptcy) the Scottish Parliament decide after the Scottish People in a second referendum have said yes with 78 % majority, to dissolve the State and be fully part of UK.

Markus

Something I don't get - even if tongue in cheek, what is it about Scotland that makes people think it couldn't survive if it did vote to become independent?

If it's viewed as such an economic basket case, what does that say about how it's economy has been run whilst it's still a part of the UK?

Genuine questions.

Mike.

In 2014, the two major b ranches of the Scottish eco09nomy were oil andf finance sector.

Oil is in decline as an economy b ranch. With the CO2 debate raging, the fast liquidation of fossile-based assets has started already some tiem ago. Production is high, price is low, Scottish gaisn from it would be lower than before 2014. Also, oil in the Northsea area is not exactly becoming more. Norway sholuld serve as an exmaple for both above points. - The market price for gas has almost collapsed, after the heavy investments of the US into fracking they now see thewir investment in dangers due to the price fall. Which is the rela reason why the Americnas attack germany and the eU over thoese two pipeline projects: is not about freeodm gas and Russian suppoliars, its about that they want to sell their won gas and Russia out of the way. So here too you have an exmaplke why the scottish cannot endlessly rely on fossile fuels as a basis for their eocnomic independence. In 2014, before hte referum, oil and gas made up for 13% of the Scottish income.

Finances are worse, the balance ottal of the Scottish banks iun 2014 was 12 times as high as the Scottish rela economy balance. In other words: it was hopelkessly overblown. The Scottish would be extrenely vulnerable for any financial not even earthquakes, but even just early symptoms of it.

So you have limited oil, fossile fuel debate, and a vulnerable bankling sector as fundaments for - independence? I think it would be a very short-libved drwema only - and then the EU would be expected to step in and vbial them ouzt. And the EU payers are - well, you koinow the mantry.

No, I do not see as a vlauavle and contirbuting future member of the eU. Soloner or later they owuld lose theirt independence again - on the dayx they must ask others to pay theirt bills. If oyu depend on others,m you are not independent, but dependent. Thats why I want London to keep the role of the paymaster.

As a libertarian I say they have the right to go their own way, if that is what they want. I said this for any other independence movement in Europe. I just refuse to pay for their bills now or in the future. I do not see somebody asking for EU membership automatically having the right to demand that his request must being acceptedm then it would not be a question or request anymore, but a command. I would reject it, this candidate is not stabile enough, and a risk. I doubt they can afford independence in the long run. Idf they accept this and are ready to go all alone, so be it then. Buzt let them be wanred.

Of course I am not the EU, the EU would love to pay for them and bring them in as soon as possible - just to piss England and show the world how rewarding it is to be a EU member.

Even Tony Blair in an interview with a German newspaper yesterday said that he recommends Johnson does not allow just another referendum. However, that is a fo9rmnalöity, like i Spain, and like I do to accept the Sonaish self-gioven rule that Madrid has the right to own other people and reject their call for independence, I think the same right cannot be accpeted in case of London. Both nations do not have the right to claim ownberhsip of other people. Where they cliam such a right, constitution or not, it is a violation of basic and profound human rights.

But again: independence as a nation you need to be able to afford. Dont expect others to pay your bills. Because then you are not dependent at all. THAT IS A NO-BRAINER, ISN'T IT...?

Fair points Skybird,
I agree that the bigest flaw with any system of government or collectivisation, the larger it is the less people it truley represents under that blanket. Scotland and Catalunya should have the right to go it alone if they wish.
Buts its murky, As with Brexit its very much divided in both those places. There is never an easy way to reconcile that as there is no go between or compromise when it comes to breaking away, its all or nothing at all.

Whats worrying now is that 'tyranny of the majority' is a phrase being tossed around by the losers of western democracies, unfortunatley that's just reality of any democracy even if the government formed is a representative one (like a coalition) and the only alternative is tyranny of the minority which is ultimatley dictatorship.


In the case of brexit i think most who voted remain have come round to the idea that this is where we are going for now and that regretfully they must accept it as we can only go forwards in time and not back.
As for where the hardline remainers & Labour /Libdems chewed off their own leg; (and the U.S democrats seem to be heading for the same trap in 2020)
openess and tolerance are possitive and sensible values to hold, but if you take them to their radical extremes you end up worshiping the foriegner and resenting the national - you cannot forge a national identity out of the rejection of national identity, oxymoron.

I am the last to claim that the majority principle is the holy grail - it clearly is not, for it only makes sense if the electorate is qualified and educated. Voting campaigns before generla elections time and again show that the elctorate clearly is not qualified at all. Such a herd of cattle should not be given powers of any kind. I am in full with the criticism as voiced by Stanford politologist Jason brennan, whom I have repeatedly referred to. His diagnosis is 100% correct, like is Herrmann Hoppe's, I only have doubts about both men's recommended altenrative remedies. Brewnnan at least is honest enogh to admit that his alternative is so far a thought experiment whose validity still must be proven.

Meanwhile the EU already has started to conspire again against the UK, stirring the pot behind its back and showing an innocent face at the same time. I know why I meet this scum with such contempt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...itics-51342714

"We dont pull the cat's tail, we just hold it tight." Thats what they do, all the time, everywhere, and not just over Brexit. The EU can never be trusted. Never. In the end, it not even lives up to its own treaties and laws.

Sorry, Sky - had to do that rather than clog up the post!:03:

As Ju_88 wrote, all very good points and all perfectly valid - but it just underlines the problem:

WHY is Scotland's economy so massively unbalanced? WHY the need for the Barnett formula subsidies?

I've posted this before but my own opinion is that the pro-UK side have NO interest in Scotland becoming a net contributer to the UK exchequer. If it was it would invalidate all their arguments that the Union is beneficial to Scotland - viewed on purely economic grounds it isn't fair to either Scotland or England. A Scotland that was a net-contributer would have as much need for the UK on economic grounds as England and thus would be more likely to vote for independence and hence a threat to their positions.

The Conservative commentator Henry Hill has posted a very good analysis here:

The state of the unionists

As for the SNP's pro-EU position - I have my own take.

Scottish political leaders sacrificed Scotland's status as a separate nation in 1707 for both personal and national economic advantage, why wouldn't the current set do so again?

Which "Empire" serves Scotland's interests best?

Mike.:hmmm:

Scotland's largest trade union has backed calls for a second independence referendum.

A meeting of Unison's Scottish council has voted in favour of indyref2 at a time to be determined by the Scottish Parliament.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-51340598

Former European Council president Donald Tusk says Brussels feels "empathy" towards an independent Scotland joining the European Union.

Nicola Sturgeon has said an independent Scotland would seek full EU membership.

When asked if this would be looked upon favourably, Mr Tusk said there would be enthusiasm but he warned the country would not be automatically accepted.

Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab warned the comments could encourage "separatist tendencies" in the EU.

They were "rather un-European and rather irresponsible," he added.

"I'm not sure European leaders, let alone here in the UK, would actually welcome that comment," he said.

Mr Tusk, who served as European Council president for five years until November last year, told the BBC's The Andrew Marr Show that he feels "very Scottish, especially after Brexit".

When asked about the prospect of an independent Scotland joining the EU, the Polish politician said he had to "respect the internal debate in the United Kingdom" and it was not his role to intervene.

But when pressed on the level of support in the EU towards an independent Scotland joining the union, he said: "Emotionally I have no doubt that everyone will be enthusiastic here in Brussels, and more generally in Europe.

"If you ask me about our emotions, you will witness I think always empathy."

However he warned that any future entry bid on the part of an independent Scotland would not be automatically accepted - "formalities" and treaty agreements would still need to be adhered to.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-51342714

Interesting piece by Professor David Starkey:

The UK’s four nations can be reinvented and flourish

Although there's an interesting caveat at the end:

Bold mine.

The article also touched on what I think is a very good point: for the UK to survive, perhaps the best way would be to "kill" the four separate national identities. No English, no Scottish, no Welsh, no Northern Irish, only British. However that would entail a degree of cultural genocide that is very un-British.

Mike.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...ostcount=12407


:D

Meanwhile, the EU continues to deny the point of Brexit and what it really is about:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51345776

I think what the EU fears more than anything is that the high tax regimes by which the net payers finance the EU show could be undermined by a Britain challenging them on it with a low tax regime. But I hope right that is what Johnson will do. Super-Uschi's staff has threatened the world with raising penalty taxes for products imported by Europe that are not produced in accordance with the "Green Deal" madness. By this the EU wants to force the rest of the world to comply with the demands of that European hubris. But I just said it: it is hubris, and I want it to be shattered to pieces.

^ I'm of the opinion the EU is petrified of a competitor right on their doorstep.

Meanwhile, Operation Doom and Gloom gathers momentum.

A piece by Michelle Ballantyne MSP, Jackson Carlaw's competitor for leadership of the Scottish Conservatives:

Michelle Ballantyne: Why I’m standing to lead the Scottish Conservatives

She stood for the leadership position to prevent Carlaw being "coronated" as SCon Leader. If that had happened it would have undercut any attack on Sturgeon, after all she had her own "coronation" as SNP leader.

Unfortunately, unless anything dramatic happens, she's unlikely to beat Carlaw but hopefully her presence will give the SCon membership something to think about.

Many of the rank and file of the party membership in Scotland want devolution scrapped altogether, rather than think constructively as to how to make it work.

Mike.:hmmm:

A piece by Michael Sommer in the Swiss Schweizer Sonntagszeitung:


"
Singapore on the Thames - dawn of a new era

What some had never believed in has now come true: Great Britain is leaving the European Union, and it is probably the most significant historical event since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe, especially the EU, will have to reinvent itself. Little remains of the euphoria that struck our continent in 1989, namely the West and the East. The United States of Europe - because this goal seemed to be within reach at the beginning of the 1990s - did not happen so quickly. Business as usual still prevails.

Most politicians, journalists, and some business leaders are not aware of the scope of this brave British referendum. They assume that the EU just continues to exist, they think that the UK is primarily affected by its decision, they think that times have hardly changed - apart from the fact that there is something rumbling on the edges of the political spectrum, squeaks and rumbles. Barbarians crawl around and riot, climate youths skip school and talk cheekily, otherwise nothing new in the West. You are wrong. They overlook the dawn of a new era.


Nuclear power with an intact army

Great Britain is the second largest economy in Europe, at the same time recently the most important trading partner for the EU outside the confederation of states. The country is also a nuclear power and has one of the few serious, still ready-to-use armies. Without Great Britain, EU politicians know that any European attempt to emancipate itself from the United States in terms of security policy has the charm of a joke.

London is also one of the most important financial centers in the world. According to the Global Financial Centers Index, only New York is of greater importance, Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam, even Zurich, and a city outside the EU are far behind, is more important than the EU financial centers. Zurich in little Switzerland is in 6th place - ahead of Frankfurt in big Germany. Hardly any European company can get past London when it is looking for financing. After all, Great Britain has seven of the forty best universities in the world, while the EU has none, and Switzerland has two.

So if the EU Commission imagines that the negotiations with the British have led it from a position of strength, while the islanders must be happy that they want to do business with them at all, then they are wrong. The Commission should also not underestimate Boris Johnson. The British prime minister, whom one long laughed at as a clown, although one knew better, has just achieved a majority on a scale that none of the current heads of government in the EU will ever experience


Merkel, an exhausted ghost

The German Angela Merkel walks through the hallways of her office like an exhausted ghost, a chancellor who has long survived her political death; Emmanuel Macron, the French, will soon be replaced by Marine Le Pen, the right-wing populist, unless he quickly implements reforms like Napoleon Bonaparte's last. It looks bad.

Years of self-deception. What has the British been ridiculed for, and their democracy, one of the oldest in the world, declared dead, how great was the anticipation of the debacle that was supposed to threaten their economy: all wrong. After all, one or two journalists woke up. The Frankfurter Allgemeine writes: “The catastrophe prophets about the Brexit vote three and a half years ago that predicted an economic downturn were wrong. On the contrary: unemployment fell, a million new jobs were created. “It should get even better

One hears that "Singapore on the Thames" means the nightmare of the Eurocrats, that is, the idea that Britain will free itself from all EU regulations that have proven to be of little use to create wealth. The competition of the systems, we as Swiss know this only too well, the commissioners in Brussels shy away from the holy water like the devil. Nobody should notice how miserable they govern. Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator, has just emphasized this: you can never allow London to indulge yourself in applying other, that is, more business-friendly, regulations. Like the Catholic Church, you can never leave the EU, even if you have left it.
"



----


What gets overlooked once again, is the excellently efficient data-collectors of the British intel services. Maybe the most efficient of their likes in Europe, before the French. But two day ago somebody at Brussel predicted fall and horror in case the British cannot easily access Europol for counter-terror anymore. I think, the bigger problem lies in Europol no longer beign able to adress British, if it gets that far. Again, the continent has more to lose here than the islanders.

The new proposals by Barnier show that reality denial still dominates in Brussels. He has just suffered a total defeat with his former negotiation style and tactic, but already acts again as if he were the dominant elephant in the room.

I agree with the author, me too has a bit underestimated Johnson. So far he does better than I expected.

^ I liked that, so much so I've tweaked it a little for posting elsewhere :03:

Now this had me bursting in tears, laughing.

Headline in Die Zeit:

"Three pages from Boris Johnson, 33 pages from Michael Barnier". :har:

Brussels still has not understood anything. :haha: But we run jokes on the British still crying over their lost Empire...? :har: