Yeah, I have to say that is pretty sound thinking, IMO. Well said.

No, I don't think it has anything to do with this board. My experience in 12 years on the web leads me to say there's a sort of rebellious "I'm an atheist, aren't you shocked?" attitude among many forum dwellers on the web in general.

One last comment by me on this topic. As you know, religon is very personal to some people, so I urge everyone, religous or not, to keep a little respect in your comments. I see from reading the thread that you have done this pretty well. Thanks. We do not all believe or disbelieve the same things, and since no one can prove God exists, belief depends on faith. Consequently, no one can prove he does not exist, either, right? So not believing in God or a supreme being requires faith as well, faith that your senses, logic, and threories are correct. It makes sense to you so you believe it. But, you don't know it is true, you don't know there is no God, you just believe it. ;)

What I do know is that we are here to talk with each other and discuss things, so let's continue to keep it friendly.

May it never be denied that I wasn't a friendly person ...


Faith itself is a gift from God … You can not even believe in God unless He
wants you to …The calling of God is simply this … many are called, but few
are chosen.



Quoted: Saint Paul KJV

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2:5-12 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God

http://www.amazingbible.org/

This may be interesting for you:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

Thats good.

but it's not explaining Why the eye evolved...

I know why God designed it.

Wait let me read that one more time BRB!

Edited

Whow!

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/f...ationists.html

Ok this is a good source of stuff to think about.

Thank you for pointing me this way Wim Libaers

Look something up if you don't understand it. Don't flaunt your ignorance. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3OZndaMi8c

Edit: Youtube and wiki are great to learn the basics. There are many hundreds of smaller steps known to science that wiki and youtube have missed out. You will need to google around for some papers to fill in the details. Give it a go! Its very interesting.


As for the more basic question:
Why would evolution do this?

Evolution will do anything that gives a small advantage.
A single light cell on your skin gives advantage as you can tell if its night or day. Even a tiny improvement in this kind of primitive eye will be favored by the gene pool. Continued improvements are favored and we end up with a complex eye.
Evolution does not do it for a reason. It just does it because it is the natural pattern.

Clicking on that link it took me less than a minute to realize this is just another pseudo-scientific site.

And may I add there is no creation/evolution controversy. It is an invention of people who are, well, no exactly scientists, to say it mildly.

I think everyone has to tolerate someone elses belief in god, but it`s hard for me to tolerate pseudo-science, especially if it`s trying to get a foothold into the education system.

Fortunately this is not so much an issue where I live (Europe), but it seems to be a threat in the states.

GlobalExplorer, that IS a scientific site that is attacking creationist pseudo-science. I think you got confused by the creationist content the site was trying to expose.

Indeed. That site is an excellent source for the debate which, within the bounds of logic and science, has more or less been resolved (and the site gives you a massive number of ways in which it has, while providing accurate sources from both sides.)

***

In terms of the whole creationism / intelligent design thing, my question is always "why"?

Why can't we substitute "intelligent design" with "harmonious development"?

To me the whole thing is a bit of an insult to both the beauty and the mysteries existence, actually. The creationist view essentially holds that the universe is a more or less a place full of chaos, "evil" and nonsense where a single, sentient King-of-Existence (God) bends and twists the laws of existence to create the "right" things. It sounds not only unreasonable but oppressive and despotic (when the whole ideology extended into social practice, especially - and no doubt it is).

Why is it so offensive if one sees the universe as organized by inherent order, consistency and probability? In my view, God doesn't bend or twist these things - God IS these things. And I think it makes the existence a far more amazing, believable and mysterious phenomenon than the gross and illogic simplifications of religion.

Neal - I echo your points in regard to keeping orderly and polite, but please realize that we are trying to conduct a reasonable argument with reasonable means. When someone throws downright bad rhetoric or uses evasive and impolite means, I think we should at least be able to restate our case in no uncertain terms. The stance you suggest is that essentially, the 'atheists' with their reason should come down to an agnostic position, and I don't think it's neccesarily right. Sure 'our' position here is based on belief, but we've put in great effort in substantiating it logically, and I think we should have the right to state and restate our arguments and consider the other side to have been 'rhetorically defeated' when they fail to adequately respond.

In other words, I don't have any illusions about this being anything but an internet debate - or about changing people's minds; but within that, I think, there's room for not backing down from a rhetorical position.

I can sting in this discussion, but I won't. I hope the other side plays nice as well and either offers up good rhetoric or stops insulting ours.

I'm having problems with who the other side is ...

I am a simple person ... I know what a Christian is ...
I know many of the names of various religions of the world ...
I know what an atheist is, but what side are you on CCIP?

I'm on the side of prophetic South African political analysts, myself.

Sorry, my mistake. My reflex was that I didn't really check the site, and probably I won't do it ever because the material on the site doesn't interest me.

A reason for my post was ist that I am suspicious there could as well be a very shrewd plan to put up this site, for discussion of the "creation/evolution controversy" (which doesn't exist outside the minds of some people), with the one and only aim to make it appear as if there was a growing disagreement among scientists.

And I also really don't like the term "controversy" in this context.

Not every scam on the internet is easy to look through .. That just as a word warning.

:hmm: May I make a clarification here, well maybe several clarifications...

First, yes, Christians believe that God is a Triune God (The Great 3 In One) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

The Father is the great creator.
The Son is the Father who came to earth in human flesh.
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter sent to help guide. Notice he is just here to help guide you must choose to follow.

Many PEOPLE believe this BUT that does not make them Christian.

Second, I think I'm not really sure maybe AVON LADY can shed some light here, the Muslim god is very different from the Jewish God.

Now on the other hand we Christians believe that we have the same God as the Jewish, but the Jewish do not recognize the Son of God nor the Holy Spirit.

Third, Moses came down off the mountain with only TEN count'em 10 commandments. The rest were added later for religious purposes. I think they are called Laws:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Anyway I hope this don't muddy the water, any more than it is already.

But remember the muslims themselves came from Abraham who had a
child by his wife Sarah's handmaiden Ishmael. It was Ishmael that went
on to be a great nation, because of God's favor on Abraham. That nation
is today the nations that worship Islam, because of a false prophet set up
in 6th century. He is not our God nor is he the God of the Hebrew children.

Abraham then conceived the child of promise, Isaac and then Jacob and
Isau were twins with Isau being first and rightful heir, but the mother
encouraged Jacob to deceive Isau out of his inheitance with a bowl of lentils
(good chilli).

The water is not muddy for me, remember the verse about wherever
two or three arre gathered together in my name ...
I'll go look that up, but first I pray the Holy Spirit would make it clearer
and clearer for anyone that has ventured this far in questioning the
faith of a Christian.

True as a Christian there are only three when you believe, not one, not two,
not four, but only three. Father, Son and Holy Spirit


There are three persons that make Him one God, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit …

"One of them is in me at all times and He doesn’t have to go ask the other two
anything” (my grandfather said that)

It is the Holy Spirit that lives within a person. In other words they are the same,
because when you’re a Christian you are on the inside looking out, not the
outside looking in.

Something supernatural happens when you say, “Yes, Lord, Yes I believe”

Some fall by the wayside, because they become lukewarm. Jesus said, “I would
rather for you to be hot or cold (about me), but because you are lukewarm …
I shall spew you out.

Revelations 3:15-16
“I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either
cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about
to spit you out of my mouth.


Oswald Chambers http://www.myutmost.org/12/1220.html

Quote:

When you find yourself face to face with a person who is spiritually lost, remind yourself of Jesus Christ on the cross. If that person can get to God in any other way, then the Cross of Christ is unnecessary. If you think you are helping lost people with your sympathy and understanding, you are a traitor to Jesus Christ

In the concept of monotheism and G-d's omniscience, they are one and the same, but that's it.

Have a look at Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith. Principles 1 through 5 a mutually shared. Principle 6 is somewhat shared. Judaism simply does not recognize Mohamed as a prophet. In fact, we haven't recognized any prophet for over 2300 years or so.

Obviously Principles 7 through 9 are not in accordance with Islam.

Principles 10 and 11 are mutually agreed upon. Of course there is no agreement on what G-d's commandments are.

It is not clear to me what partialities of Principles 12 and 13 are shared by Islam but they are not equivalent to Judaism's.