I, too, knew next to nothing about U-boats and the German navy until I started playing SH3 and it has spurred study in U-boats. Both COD and SH3 taught me things I didn't know, or had forgotten, about WWII. If they had video games in high school I would've learned more than through the dry text books, and times and dates we were taught!

There was a documentary on PBS last night about D-Day and I found it fascinating about all the technology that had to be developed in just two years, like the Higgins-boat (unfortunately many of them sank when they were launched too far from shore) and the bravery of the two men who snuck onto Omaha beach at night to take sand depth measurements (for the tanks).
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/moon_sub3.jpg

am surprised no one has touhed on this. Yes hitler was bad... but Stalin was way worst....

And yet you can play as the russians all the time in FPS/SIMs

I realize stalin is not representing all the russians
Just as hitler and the nazis didnt represent all the germans


Its the same idea, churchhill made an alliance with him knowing full well of stalin and his deeds. But he choose the best of 2 evils...

My enemy of my enemy is my Friend



Number of victims

Early researchers of the number killed by Stalin's regime were forced to rely largely upon anecdotal evidence, and their estimates range as high as 60 million.[9][8]
With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, hard evidence from the Soviet archives finally became available, and many of the earlier, higher estimates became more difficult to sustain. For example, the archives record that about 800,000 prisoners were executed (for either political or criminal offences) under Stalin, while another 1.7 million died of privation[citation needed] or other causes in the Gulags and some 389,000 perished during kulak resettlement - a total of about 3 million victims.
Debate continues however[10], since some historians believe the official figures are unreliable.[9] Also, it is generally agreed that the data are incomplete, since some categories of victims were carelessly recorded by the Soviets - such as the victims of ethnic deportations, or of German population transfer in the aftermath of WWII.
Thus, while some archival researchers have posited the number of victims of Stalin's repressions to be no more than about 4 million in total [11][12][13], others believe the number to be considerably higher. Russian writer Vadim Erlikman[10], for example, has made the following estimations: Executions 1.5 million, Gulag 5 million, Deportations 1.7 million (out of 7.5 million deported), and POW's and German civilians 1 million, for a total of about 9 million victims of repression.
These numbers are by no means the full story of deaths attributable to the regime however, since at least another 6 to 8 million victims of the 1932-33 famine must be added.[14][11][12] But again historians differ, this time as to whether or not the famine victims were purposive killings - as part of the campaign of repression against kulaks - or whether they were simply unintended victims of the struggle over forced collectivization.
Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a probable figure of somewhere between 15 to 20 million. Adding 6-8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a figure of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest[13], meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.[14] However such estimates make little sense in terms of the demographic history of Russia. Haynes and Husan discuss all the different forms of mortality in Stalin's Russia drawing on contemporary Russian sources and modern calculations. They locate these in the context of the different surges in death and also point to unexplored issues about the class distribution of deaths.[15]


SOURCE: Wikipedia

Firstly mate it isn't very credible to quote from a wikipedia when most of us who say that the kriegsmarine was far from a Nazi oriented wing of the German Military have our information from many books written by credible authors.

So I disagree with your assertion that the Kriegsmarine was another stoutly Nazi machine for the Third Reich. I say this not because of some misguided need to glorify a Navy which many of us are fascinated by but rather because of much evidence which I have encountered in many books about the U-boat war and the Kriegsmarine in general. Firstly the kriegsmarine, unlike the regular army, SS, and airforce, at the beginning of Hitler's reign was the same as that before he came to power. The command structure was maintained from a pre Nazi period and the internal operation of it was largely maintained by non-Nazi leaders. For instance Admiral Raeder and Doenitz were not members of Hitler's inner circle which accounts for the fact that the Kreigsmarine was often given a last say in allocation of funding.

Though Gunther Prien was a devout Nazi, Otto Kretchmer was a much more mild, realistic sailor who from what I've read was a nationalist and a good sailor but didn't have much taste for the glories of Naziism. The Kriegsmarine did it's duty for it's nation and it's sailors did the same. As was tyhe case all over Germany Hitler wasn't the evil tyrant that we now perceive him to be. That was an after war perception.

The fact is that the german navy was just the same as any navy, doing it's duty. In fact Doenitz once he had become admiral of the whole kriegsmarine resisted many of Hitler's more despicable attempts to alter navy policy. Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no. In fact numerous Kaleuns have been recorded as having helped survivors to their boats, given them food, and taken the most critically injured aboard and then tranferring them to neutral ships which they encountered. The most famous example of this was the Laconia affair where a u-boat accidentally torpedoed a hospital ship and immediately requested aid from bdu in helping to save the survivors. A number of U-boats were dispatched and aided the numerous injured. Bdu even attempted to contact the allies informing them of the icident and asking them not to attack the u-boats in the area who were undertaking the humanitarian mission. The allies ignored this and even bombed a u-boat which was displaying a red cross flag accross it's tower and was towing lifeboats behind her and had many survivors on her deck. The allies nearly bombed their own survivors.

No the kriegsmarine and the u-boats were not Nazis by and large. Sure there were many Nazis within the organization but primarily its function remained that of simple German Patriots and not viscious Nazis.

They were just soldiers like everyone else caught in the grasp of war which made everyone into victims and monsters.

Read Alexander Solzhenitsyn!
 

Moshe Leshem (former Israeli ambassador to UN)
"This (Bolshevism) was a movement staffed in its upper echelons by Jewish Communists and yet the world is comparatively silent about the holocaust and war crimes this thoroughly kosher system inflicted and the identity of the persons who were its architects. Auschwitz is on the tip of every tongue but who has heard of Kolyma, Magadan, the Solovetsky islands and the other infernal Soviet centers of human destruction in eastern Siberia? Who has seen films and books about the millions of human beings worked, frozen and starved to death in the construction of the White Sea-Baltic Canal, over which stood a triumphant, colossal statue of the Jewish communist mass murderer Genrikh Yagoda? The Jewish-communist epoch of mass murder has disappeared into history in one of the great vanishing acts of all time. Only practiced deceivers, with all the sleight of hand of the most accomplished stage magicians, could pull off such a coup against the rest of humanity. To trick mankind into focusing nearly all expiatory sentiment, monuments and commemoration on Jewish victims and brand the Mark of Cain - the very words war crime and holocaust itself - on Germany and upon Germans alone as their proprietary trademark, must be regarded as one of the most masterful achievements of psychological warfare in the annals of illusion... Israelis and American Jews fully agree that the memory of the Holocaust is an indispensable weapon - one that must be used relentlessly against their common enemy... Jewish organizations and individuals thus labor continuously to remind the world of it. In America, the perpetuation of the Holocaust memory is now a $100-million-a-year enterprise, part of which is government-funded." (Balaam's Curse: How Israel Lost Its Way, and How It Can Find It Again, 1989)

As for P Funk's comment, I'm pretty sure from my readings that the Nazis were nothing more than a dedicated band of German super patriots willing to lay down their lives to protect their country from the evils of communism. Where's wrong in that? Have you forgotten that the eastern half of Europe and Germany fell under Soviety tyranny because of Nazi's defeat?

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?

Bloody well said :):up:

I second that, Spaxspore. Well said, mate!

Reply to playing as German in Sims
 

Hi there,
I was very touched by your question not least because of a long family history with Germany. I'm sorry I have to write this in English, my apologies for not speaking German.

Many years ago I visited Germany, in the Stuttgart area around Blau Springs and Ulm. We went there to visit an old family friend who was a German student who stayed with our family in England off and on through the 60's.

One day, in the middle of winter we visited a very small church in the country, where as a small boy I was horified to see pictures of German soldiers on the walls of the church, the photos were commemorations of local German boys who had died in the war.

My Dad, who is Jewish turned to me and said something that will remain with me for the rest of my life, simply put, the boys in those photos in that church, may have been fanatics, perhaps not, but they did have families and their mothers had the right to mourn the loss of their sons as much as any other.

The lesson is this, what states do to other states or individuals can’t be helped, what matters is what individuals do when the chips are down.

For this reason I am perfectly happy to play as a U-Boat commander. The historic record tells us that far from the monsters the Allies tried to portray them, many U-Boat commanders were utterly civilised, humane human beings, who tried to offer some assistance to their victims.


Play the game, enjoy the history, at the end of the day German history is not so far distant from that of any other great nation.


I hope by my reply I have not, and od not offend any one who reads this.



Regards
Rascal.

I forget exactly which book it was, I got it from the Library. However I recall reading that fact in a few books. And how do you suppose it is preposterous? In matters of the Navy he wasn't so decisive when his advisors said it was a bad idea. And how is that fact preposterous given the very widely documented Laconia affair?

Once again, you are very much entitled too your opinions...but this is very much off topic. If you want to start a different "Nazi's were not so bad but those Jews..." thread, have at it...but not here. I find this thread fascinating...but not your comments, just my opinion. Moderator, Please break out your hatchet again ;)

Well said:|\\

I have never bought into these discussions, as I feel they are without relevence, but since this has gone on for five pages, I will do so now.

I enjoy submarine simulations. That is exactly what I am playing in SH3. I am playing with pixels. The voices are in German. The designs are based on a German u-boat from the Second World War. However, no consequence hangs on my actions. No one dies when a ship is sunk. No political rational is vindicated on victory, nor is it condemed on defeat. No swastika hangs in the virtual air.

In this, it is no different than playing as a Victor III in Sub Command (with SCU), or playing as a Perry FFG in Dangerous Waters. It is no different than playing as a Special Operations soldier in the Rainbow Six series, or an Su-33 in LOMAC. It is no different than playing as the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval Total War, or the Britons in Age of Empires II.

There is nothing political about any of it. It is a game. It is trivial. It is intended to be both of the afforementioned: Nothing more, nothing less. If more is seen there, then it is placed there by the user. I save my intuition for more important matters.

This is correct. What we are doing is playing a game and enjoying our shared interest in that game. The very notion of guilt or stigma in enjoying that is preposterous, as is the idea that anyone should feel shame in portraying a Kriegsmarine ubootmann or a member of any of Germany's defence forces. It is that position which should be attacked, for it is purely without merit.

Members of my family served in all arms of the British forces, the RAF, the Royal Navy and the Army (parachute regiments I believe) throughout the war. While I cannot agree with their decision to do so, I was not present at the time and they were grown men capable of making their own decisions for right or for wrong. It is not my place to pass judgment on my family members, nor is it anyone elses to pass judgment on the men who served the call with honor in Germany. I know first hand that my grandfather's political opinions, like the majority of Irishmen, were closer to that of Nazi Germany than the position advocated by Britain during the war, but he served as an Irish volunteer nonetheless. One can only say that it is a great shame that Europeans suffered in an unnecessary war, a war that with European led diplomacy would surely have been avoided.

My view's pretty much the same. It's a game, nothing more.

Unfortunately, I'll admit to having a very slight hang-up (Pasted from the Mercantile Marine.org forum):

Third Officer John Milne was my Great-Uncle.:cry:

As a result, I have a tendency to avoid the area around the Rockall Bank. Silly, perhaps, but it's there.

U-136 was subsequently sunk west of Maderia by a French Destroyer and a British Frigate and Sloop. No survivors either.

RIP Uncle Alec.

Mike.

I extend my deep sympathy on your loss.

As said by a few others, I have been a little reluctant to post on this thread, despite the perfectly innocent questions raised by the originator.
Speaking purely on a personal level, as an ex-Merchant Navy Navigation Officer, I play SH3 primarily because I enjoy playing the "game", I find the whole graphics and atmosphere pretty realistic (after a touch of mega-modding!), and to a certain extent it takes me back to some of my times out on the deep, dark seas.
The fact that I am playing the role of a Uboat Captain, and therefore obviously German, does not enter into it. It would be the same if I were role-playing as the Captain of one ofthose annoying little Flower Corvettes, or the poor old Tankers that we all try so hard to find. At the end of the day (Oh, how I hate that phrase!) we are all simply role-playing.
I must admit that I do, where possible, play as realistically as I can, in that I use 100% Realism, All-manual targetting, etc. i also try to use correct real-life people as my crew and officers, though it is not always possible to use an entire "real" crew from one particular Patrol, I use a mix of crew that served on board my particular Uboat at some stage during their careers. The most important thing, to me, in using real people in my Patrols is that I always, without fail, will attempt to bring some dignity to my actions while playing SH3, and in some cases try to give some poor Matrosengefreiter who in reality was killed in, say, 1940 on his first patrol, some kind of reincarnation, even if only in a computer game. I have the ultimate respect for all those either killed, injured, or survived the REAL Uboat War, and I try my best to show them that respect in my gameplay.
To me, my SH3 crew become real people, and I treat them as such, as in correct watch rotation, shoreleave, and correct Station assignment. I usually get angry with myself, if I allow one of my crew to be killed whilst serving under my command.

OK, so some may think I'm taking things a bit far, but I really enjoy the "immersion" that building these relationships can breed. I am one of those SH3 players who get just as much satisfaction from returning from Patrol with only one miserable Coastal Merchant to my credit, but having survived numerous heavy DC attacks and finally crept away from a persistent escort with my boat and crew in one piece, as I do when returning without seeing a single Destroyer and racking up 50000 tons of sunken ships.

The nationality, politics, or any other difference between people is irrelevant. The men who served in the Ubootewaffe did so with just the same dedication, trepidation, and sometimes terror, as their british or American or otherwise counterparts. We were, or are, all "men of the sea" and thus have a mutual bond that surpasses any national or political boundaries.

Just MHO

cheers