Those actions killed, without warning or provocation, 8 Canadians who had no more idea this was coming than anyone else outside of Israel. So yeah, you know I think that gives me the right to be critical. And who do you think I am to come up with solutions, and why do I have to come up with solutions when I'm not the one doing the killing on either side?

Minimizing events? I stated precisely the events that happened to which the Israeli PM stated were "an act of war" even as, on the same day of these events, Israel bombed the Lebanon International Airport and began the process of leveling the country.

I didn't say they should just "sit back and take it", that's a strawman and a false dichotomy, and Lebanon is not the "Arab world" and its not only 16,000-40,000 Canadians who were there, but also 25,000 Americans and perhaps upward of 40-50,000 Europeans, several thousand Australians, and thousands more from other parts of the world outside the "Arab world".

As to the issue of fault, if you know anything at all about the region then you should realize there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides, and that Israel's hands are far from clean - in Palestine alone its kidnapped 10s of thousands, most of whom have been held without trial, and killed 4-5 Palestinians, mostly civilians, for every 1 Israeli killed. In Lebanon its been killing, again mostly civilians, at a ratio of 10:1 for every Israeli killed (half of whom are civilian, half of whom are uniformed military) and is the regional power, not non-existant Palestine, certainly not defenceless Lebanon, and not even Syria or Iran could stand up to it. And this is not even taking into account the unconditional support it enjoys from its Super power ally that none of the other regions do. But leveling Lebanon without warning is the only possible response it could have taken eh?

Those are simple facts, you can spin them however you want but nothing the Canadians in Lebanon did warranted their deaths while Israel not only gave no opportunity for them to leave before they began leveling the place, they also deliberately cut off as many avenues of escape as possible, trapping them there and terrorizing them with a hail of bombs and artillery as the IDF systemically ripped the country apart and continues to do so.

That you are so indifferent to the shared plight of the 25,000 of your own Americans who were forced by the IDF to endure the same deliberate collective punishment and suffering Israel inflicted upon the Lebanonese simply amazes me.

Disagraceful.

It doesn't help that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, United Arab Emirates, and Iran pay Top Dollar to the surviving families of bomber jihadists. Last time I had heard anything, the Saudi's had funneled $4 billion to Pali bombers in the past 5 years.

Paying someone to wage war for you, while being able to deny any involvement, and thus responsibility.

I'm getting tired of this non-state actor stuff. I'm ready to start holding countries accountable for the bastards that live within them, whether they want to take responsibity or not. I'm talking about the Mexican and Columbian drug cartels just as much as hamas and hezbollah.

I'm also getting tired of the old media interpreting "Allah" as "God". Yahweh isn't the same as Allah. The religions are actually different, regardless if liberal atheists want to equivalate all of them for sake of moral simplicity.

That's never stopped you from having a very detailed and lengthy opinion on what you think the Isrealis are doing wrong and why. It just seems to me that you should have at least an idea what they should do. If not why should anyone listen to your opinions at all?

Re minimizing events: You said " Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers" as if it were just a one time attack against a single town and those are the only two Israelis they've ever harmed. Well what you either fail to recognize, or in your bias refuse to recognize, is that this is something the Israelis have been dealing with for decades.

You can jab a stick at a bear for only so long before he turns around and strikes back at you. Anyone else who ignores this situation and puts themselves between the jabber and the bear has little justification to cry foul if they get hurt when it happens. No warning? They had 20 years of warnings.

You want to know what I find disgraceful? It's how people like your 16 thousand Canadians and my 25 thousand fellow Americans can go on vacation and work in a country like Lebanon which allows murderers and thugs to attack innocent civilians in a neighboring country.

Are you equally tired of people referring to the protestant and catholic object of worship by the same name, "God"? The differences between those religions are big enough to have been the cause of wars and massacres.

Be prepared to keep getting tired ad infinitum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

Because even people who do not claim to have all the answers are entitled to opinions. OTOH, many people who claim to actually have the answers, are airbags.

I hope that answers your question.

:D Good point. :up:

August, you know a lot of those people, I can say with certainty most of those Canadians (can't speak for the Americans but think it's the same) are actually of Lebanese origin or even first generation immigrants. So they had a choice of going on holiday to Hawaii or Tiajuana and for some bizzare reason decided to go to the coutnry were many still had family. Most of these are legal productive immigrants btw.

I recall (personally for 1980, otherwise read) our governments were very attentive to the concerns of citizens of East European descent during the Cold War.

not only that... but if you'll trace your dna back more than a few generations... you'll find that all Europeans are descended from that region...

all Europeans are of oriental extract...

this is fact... accept it or not...

so the idea that they are any 'less' Canadian because they weren't white Canadaian, or Euro canadian is even more absurd...


--Mike

Well isn't claiming to know what one group or another is doing wrong a sort of answer too?

The reason i ask is there are plenty of people on these forums who feel qualified enough to go into great detail about what they think the Israelis are doing wrong but you never, ever, see them offer any ideas on what Israel could do right to end terror attacks on it's civilians.

sometimes August, the obvious thing should *NOT* be done, is certainlyan easier to thing to see than what should, or could be done...

the large scale bombing of civilians in Lenbanon is obviously easy to see as the thing *NOT* to do... therefor, don't be surprised as it becomes the focal point for comment...

this in no way justifies the killing of civilians on the israeli side either... i have associates who have family over there, and my sympathies are without reservation with them...

and you are right... there are a lot of unqualified and misinformed experts offering up solutions and opinions around here... welcome to the club...

--Mike

Except it isn't large scale bombing of civilians now is it? If you have an enemy hiding behind the skirts of women and children some of them are going to get hurt no matter how much you try to avoid it. You cannot refuse to attack that enemy because it only validates the tactic of using civilians as human shields, but if you do, the world complains about the resulting civilian deaths. A Hobsons choice.

Of course that is worlds different than the large scale deliberate and repeated attacks on Israeli civilians that their enemy seems to favor.

So again I ask. What is Israel to do, if not what they are doing?

I could however deal with Liv Tyler :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

To Scandium
Why are you whining so much over sad but accendental death of 8 Canadians when the very org. that started all this killed 200+ Americans in the Marine barracks bombing in the early 80s. I helped pull body parts out of the ruins for a week, oh and by the way, 18 Canadian soliders died there as well.

We Americans have come under fire quite a bit (USS Cole, Embassies, 9-11). Where were you when we asked for support. I'll tell you where, booing an American pre-highschool hockey team in Toranto because we attacked the Taliban, as if those kids had anything to do with the political situation. Now that was disgraceful
:down: :down: :down: :stare:

then you must try harder... put yourself in the shoes of one of those innocent women or children... your viewpoint might change 180 degrees if you were one of them...

and it *IS* large scale bombing... ground and air based... don't delude yourself into believing otherwise... if such miliary action were aimed at where you lived, i'm sure you'd realize this...

and by the way... how many have to die before it is termed large scale bombing... two... three... ten people...

on both sides, how many must die before all this is seen as savagery in its purist form...

i am not Israeli... therefore i would not pretend to lecture them on what to do...

like i said above... what *NOT* to do is usually a more obvious case...

weren't you listening...


besides... the question i would ask would be more along the grounds of what should they all do to preserve the peace...

that illustrates the key difference between me and you...

you would try to justify the killing and wounding of innocent civilians as a reasonable response by a civilized peoples... this makes you no better than the very terrorists you aspouse to fight... different sides of the same coin... each one steadfast in his right to take innocent life...


--Mike

Peace? How do you preserve "peace" with an enemy who's often repeated intention is the complete destruction of ones country and citizens?

I justify nothing. I just see a vast difference between one side who targets enemy combatants and causes civilian casualties as an unwanted side effect of that and another side who deliberately attacks enemy civilians, while avoiding direct contact with their forces by hiding behind his own women and children.

War is a terrible, ugly thing and civilians have been caught in the crossfire of every war man has ever fought. As the human population grows this will continue, but to fail to make the distinction between unintentional civilian casualties and using civilians as a sort of human sandbag is the real crime.

Maybe this is where you and i really differ.