Hitman, proove me by the scriptures, the history, the statements by leading international personalities of Islam that I am wrong. Show me were I am leaving the example set by Muhammad, where I am leaving the demands of Sharia, Quaran, where I am wrong in describing the history of Islam. Prove me that taqyia is a harmless thing. These things are the basis of Islam, you cannot bypass them, you simply cannot.

BTW, you seem to miss that Sharia is no law of the type western laws are made off. What you are used to by practicing at court is irrelevant. It teaches you nothing about Sharia, nothing. Again, you cannot compare.

You also cannot compare Bible to Islam. both are two different things by structure. Both caused two historical develoepment that also are very differently structured. I repeatdely wrote in threads and essay how big the difefrences are between church, and Islam, and why these differences do exist.

You look at Islam with a westerner'S eye, you press it into a form that fits your tools and ways of understanding. That way you think it is not any different to what you are used to, culturally. you think it can be translated, like English to German, French to Italian. You are wrong.

If someone tells me he hates hitler, thinks the holocaust was a tragedy, war is wrong, racism is wrong, the rights of the individual are important compared to the collective community, then I wouldn't believe him if he tells me afterwards that he thinks of himself as a fascist, or Nazi. If he really believes what he said, he is no fascist, necessarily.

If someone comes to me and tells me he thinks free opinion needs to be tailored to the interest of a special ideology, if he tells me that minorities inside the community have the right to develope their own subculture, bypassing the whole community's majority decisions and finally trying to take it over, and that the free practicing of religion allows him to act politically in any way without any resistance to that policy allowed, and if this someone tells me he considers himself to be a liberal, or a democrat, I also wouldn't believe him.

Hate to say it, Hitman, but you are arguing exactly like most westerners do today, and as I described in that essay three days ago. The reality I lined out simply is too hard for you, so you ignore it's hard aspects and evade into fantasizing you cannot find evidence for in scriptures and history. If you think the attacks in madrid had nothing to do with religion and Islam, then you are off-course by 180°.

In the 30s, people outside Germany also thought it cannot be what is happening in Germany, and any clear action was avoided that maybe would have irritated German sensibilities. That's why Hitler was able to act without resistence until it was too late. The reality that hitler was, was too hard for most people to accept it as a fact. They simply could not believe it. It cannot be what shall not be.

The diverse interpretations of quran you pointed at, is misleading. It is better characterized as contradictions. since more than one millenium Islam is surpessing any alternative to it's orthodoxy, and I wait for anyone to show that it is not strictly based on the quran, hadith and sharia in doing so.

You are of too much good faith, Hitman, and you do not realize how your good will is abused by that. People like you are well-meaning, but nevertheless they actively form the conditions in europe that are actively helping the spreading of Islam in the West. In my last essay, I pointed out where this will lead to, necessarily, because of the nature of Islam. I again must refer to that essay as part of my answer to you. You think you have invited a guest. But this guest is not satisfied to be a guest, he thinks by that open door he has a right to become the next boss in the house. ISLAM IS NOT CHRISTIAN CULTURE; OR WESTERN CULTURE; IT DOES NOT COMPARE. If you let one of them in, you have let in all global community of Ummah, in their understanding. In all 1400 years of it'S existence Islam was brought to halts only by one factor: superior power. where that resistence was not given, it advanced aggressively.

BTW, you are from Spain. In your country there is a tradition, that in villages one day a year the successful defeat of the Muslims during the reconquista is celebrated. It is like a Spanish liberation day, if I understand it correctly. They had attacked your ancestors and taken their land and drove them away or kicked them into slavery. The reconquista was a legal and just effort of your ancestors, no doubt, it was their country, their home. This year many villages will not do these celebrations anymore, for being afraid of islam feel insulted again like by those cartoons. Parts of your poeple do no longer stand to their history, in order to appease Islamic aggression. But it will not stay appeased, it's demands will grow, the concessions you will need to accept will become greater and greater. You social community, your legislative will reflect this in the coming years and decades. Maybe you think this means nothing. But for me this rings an alarm bell.

I do not go again into the theory of Islam and personal experiences of mine in Muslim countries. I have done so in depth in the past years.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48674

Islam will dominate!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/Islamwilldominate.jpg

The new Germans.

Hitler is in HELL.

Apparently his spirit lives on.

In Evil people.

Wasn't it Aisha who said, "I have never seen women suffer as much as the Believing women"?

It's always strange to see Muslim women protesting. I guess it's a testament to the brainwashing technique. I suppose the Dear-Leader of North Korea has adopted a similar technique, to keep his people under control.



Or, more likely, the susceptible people have lived to breed, and the resilient ones have been weeded from the flock. :hmm:

It is far easier than that: I have personally lived with a family of turks in Germany two months, and saw tolerance, respect and integration in the german society. And they called themselves muslims. BTW the marriage of teh parents was arranged when they both were 16 in Turkey...and yet they opened their minds enough to change his vision about this and many other things once in Germany.

You have admitted that Konovalov is a reasonable person, and that he has tolerant ideas. And he calls himself a muslim.

I could also point out hundreds if not thousands of european muslims who have not the slightest intention of doing any revolution or riots for the Islam.

Are they all wrong? Are they all false muslims? Or are they simply doing an alternate interpretation of Islam?

I might be sticking to western's vision of things Skybird, you are probably right on that. But you have yet to proof that a ideology or religion is stronger than the men called to apply it. If those men want to change it through interpretation, they can do it. There are thousands of examples in history about that.

Hitman,

I have lived with Turks myself, too, you know. Two or three of my closest friends ever were Turks, and Northafricans. My second martial arts teacher was a Turk, he later became the trainer of the Turkish national team. I owe him very much. I even gave my life and that of our group into the hands of one of them who was our scout, and aide, he was Algerian. For professional reasons I stayed for half a year in Eastern turkey, Anatolia, the kurdish warzone, and half a year in Iran. Privately I travelled other muslims states for another couple of months, namely Egypt. I never have seen a tourist hotel from inside, we lived as private guests, or camped outside. I know these people from personally meeting them, in the relaity of their usual every-lifes oin their poor villages outside the huge cities under western influence, you know. Most people in these countries call themselves muslim, like most people in Germany call themselves Christians. I call most Christians here false christians, or hypocrites, a majority of them goes to church at Xmas, and for the rest of their year they manage there lifes in no christian way at all. Not christian in the understanding of the teachings of Jesus. It was different in for example Turkey. In the metropoles, the "tourist traps", the people and the country appeared to be Westernized, tolerant, liberal. But 'christioans are still massively supressed in turkey, sometimes even killed. The disgust for Christians is immense in Islam, and always was, as I have illustrated very often now. In the anatolian East and the kurdish areas, in the heartland of Anatolia, poverty is immense, Europeans cannot believe how poor they are over there until they have seen it with their own eyes. but tourist busses don'T drive there. What I found there (mind you that over 85% of turkish people live outside the huge cities) was ultra-orthodox harccore fundamentalism at it's best. And often we were not welcomed at all. Sometimes just cool politeness, at best, honouring their habits to host a traveller that way. Sometimes even not that. It was not because of their poverty, but because we were not Muslim , and were Westerners.

Concerning Iran, the last year or so my mind has started to bring the many impression I had collected, like pieces of a puzzle, into order. I needed to drastically reformat the image I expected to build up, the picture I now have is a very different and more unfriendly one - that way many experiences I had in Iran, events that gave me contradictory impressions, suddenly make sense. My attitude towards Iran is no longer that liberal or positive than it was some years ago. Ahmadinejadh has nothing to do with that, and the nuclear dispute has nothing to do with that again.

concerning the Turks in germany, you cannot compare them to the native turks. Both are different, and there is a third kind of Turks as well, that is the offsprings of the first generation immigrants, that stand between all coutnries, they cannot go to turkey, they are not accepted there, and they are not wanted by german society, and what'S more: they frankly say they don't want to be German, at no cost. they speak German, but see them selves as a.) Muslims, and b.) as Turks. While many of their parents stayed in Germany for 20, 30 years now - still many do not speak one word of German. Turks like you described are living here, too. But you are wrong when saying they are laying the standards for all Turks that are living here. We have many ultra-conservatoves, MANY, as well. And honour-murders and enforced marriages as well as building subcommunties with self-chosen autarky that have no intention at all to integrate, are a very big problem in Germany, and in other countries like Britain, Holland, france as well, and the public slowly gets aware of it. Old politicians of ours that were in governements long time ago call the immigration policy of Germany a terrible mistake nowadays, and admit their goals for integration have failed with flying colours. Amongst these for example ex-chancellos Helmut Schmidt. Else he is the most intelligent and clever chancellor this country has ever seen. Interference from turkish government also is a growing and already very big probllem. Under bypassing german laws, or demanding us to bypass them ourselves, Turkish government puts heavy pressure on German communties to arrange conditiuons in poublic life and in schools, that allow Turkish emmigrants to remain turkish identity, never to fall of their faith, not needing to integrate into German community, helping to increase turkish immigration, and changing communal arrangements so that turkish language, culture and Muslim faith remains untouched, for example there once even was demand that Turkish shall become second offical language in Germany. To a huge degree, not always, but most of the times, these attempts fail, when beeing conducted in public awareness, but I do not want to know what gets done in the hidden. The dispute about crucific and head-scarf is one such signal. Muslims demand us christians in our christian culture to remove christian symbols from public buoldings and classrooms, if they are demanded to give up head-sarfs. Brussel even helps them in that, by pressing for a european identity that is totally culture-free and actively rejects any expression of our cultural past. well, We are not allowed to live in our places and homes accroding to our tradtions if we want them to leave our culture untouched? Had they come to us, or did we go their countries of origin? the liberal attitude has changed into so much spineless and unlimited relativization of history and cultural identity, that in some years our children will be raised with no identity at all, or what? This is the kind of weakness that Islam is exploiting to the max. This is it's great chance to accieve what I couldn'T accieve with military force in centuries before. Today Islam has anhcored stronger basis in europe than it ever had before. A totalitarian, fascist ideolgy with a strong, militant drive for expansion at all cost - tolerated by european liberalism. If you are in doubt how the story will end, ask me. I can tell you easily.

I had Turkish friends at school. I know the situation of Truks in Germany better than you do. I lived with the ordinary, poor 'turks inside their own country, our team sometimes was hosted in private households in villages. Additonally, I must claim that I have collected a lot of academical input about Islam and it's scriptures, and history. don't tell me about the turks, okay?

The alternate interpretation of Islam - is not possible. Sorry, but your willingness to believe so shows that you simply have not enough knowledge about Islam, it's content and it's structure, and the kind of totalitarianism it is creating as a logical consequence of that. I donÄ't want to offend you by that, but as long as your knowledge on Islam only depends on snapshot impressions from medias and what some Muslim freinds tell you about it, you know nothing about it. You need to study ther structure of it'S scpritures, the way these scriputres had formed and changed, you must need to know the biograohy of muhammad and what type of personality you conclude by that, and you mjst know it'S history to see where it is difefrent form Western hsitory, for what reasons, and why this history is so very much in correspondence with Islam's self-defintion. As long as you do not collect knoweldge abiout these themes, you know nothing, only some media snippets. You are manipulated exactly like the type of people I described in my latest essay here: http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/DialogueWithIslam.rtf .

Changing Islam by the kind of interpretation you refered to - results in something that is not Islam, then. I also think you allow yourself too get caught too easily. Most westerners allow that.

the more "tolerant" states like tunesia, Lybia, Marocco seem to show more willingness to allow more tolerance and freedom, on the other hand in all three coutnries there are strong fundamentalist movements, and they are growing. I predict these experiment there will end like the short laicist intermezzo in turkey, here fundamentalism just hided, and then came back in force. Mind you that Erdogan is a fundamental muslim. And his party is a fundamental religious party. Under Atatürk this would have been impossible. what will happen in Egypt once Mubarak is no longer there, will become an exciting story. The pressure of the Americans to allow more demcoracy caused a sudden jump for an opposition that forms up around the radical fundamentalists Muslim brotherhood. I'm sure this was not what the WH had in mind. And the more you move to the East, the more the illusion of liberal tolerance of Islam dissapears. you cannot imagine the status of women in Afghnaistan. Well, I can, we stayed for some time in the Iranian-Afghanistan border region ("smugglerland"). A dog has a better life than women there. And you don't need many dogs to buy one.

Islam does not know peaceful coexstince with Non-Islam. It's scriptures, it'S teachings, it's historcial example-setting prooves that it is not like that. the contradictory of Quaran will always allow it to act violently, while giving some quotes to say it is not violant. But truth is, the nu,mber of passages that explicilty call for the violent overcoming of infifdels, for supressing women, for killing of what is non-Islam, are are much, much greater in numbers than the indications that it sees this different. Also. the more "tolerant" quotes of Quran you find in those parts of it, that derive to an early phase of Muhammad'S doing, it seems he later changed his mind on many things and he preached more explicit violance and intolerance (what he also practices himself, and exessively so). I have written about this often enough, Hitman. Can you imagine a Christianty without Jesus? No? but you tell me Islam can be imagine without the grim and brutal reality of Muhammad? I am not in need to proove my opinion anymore, for I have given all info needed and you have simply choosen to believe different. Believing is not knowing. As a matter of fact, I have made my statements clear, and founded them over the last months, with dozens of pages of essays and thread discussion. As a matter of fact I see you in need to proove that I am wrong. simply saying "But my Muslim neighbourd are kind and friendly people" is not enough.

And lastly you simply ignore the fact that since centuries different cultures are systematically and constantly get eredicated inside muslim territories, by force. That is hard historcial fact, and it still works in the present. I tell you this is because their acting is completely in correspondence with their religion. I also tell you that Islam necessarily cannot do differently. Two or three yeras ago a document of the Vatican's secret service leaked thorugh, counting for around 150000 christians beeing murdered in anti-christians progroams in all Muslim countries ear by year. I even do not count wars here, then we would be in the reach of millions of victims.

Sure. But the fact is that muslim turks in germany are not always like that. Perhaps the money changed that and eroded their radicalism? Wherever I see echonomical progress in a muslim country I see a relaxation in habits and more tolerance -even if not to western standards-, and that is also a truth difficult to ignore, Skybird. Some weeks ago, when Hamas won the elections I saw an interview in the TV with many people in Palestina now concerned about a possible step back in freedom. They were women who did not wear veil or Burkha, and Palestinians who had pubs where alcohol was sold. How is it possible that in the same society where radicals blow themselves with dynamite in a israeli bus also had a law allowing to sale alcohol?

Yes. But the comparation was about different kind of muslims, not about different kinds of turks, remember?

Yes we also had a demand here that Mallorca becomes one of the "Länder" and german is allowed as thrid official language. Just joking, Skybird...this comment only to let the debate loose a bit of pressure. :-j

May be. But you can believe me when I say that I have read more about Islam than just "Media Snapshots". I don't question however that you have a deeper knowledge of Islam, I just point out that some so-called muslims live daily ruled by very different principles than those seen in Iran or Afganistan, f.e.

That brings us to the next quote:

Again you could be right, and I don't deny it. But anyway I think that we should give people the opportunity to create this new or alternative Islam. If this is no longer the real Islam, then I agree with you in that we shall not let it come into Europe. Basically I pretend that any muslim in Europe respects some basic rules of peaceful cohexistance, even if that collides with their ideas. A good example of this is how the catholic church has to accept that abortion is legal in many countries, f.e. They can argue and claim against it, but they don't use violence to impose their criteria. Is this possible with Islam? With what you call the real Islam, probably not.

I have never said that I would tolerate a religion which enforces violence as a way to achieve its goals. Here is where alternate interpretations should come to solve any contradiction. Either an adaptation of islam that fits european requirements is practiced here, or the original is banned.

I would like to remark that I do not pretend to allow the practice of Islam in Europe to be like f.e. what was being done in Afghanistan. I pretend that the practice I have seen to be tolerant and respectful is allowed.

If this is not the real Islam, then I would have to agree with you Skybird. However, my personal ideas prevent me from believing anybody who claims to make the "real and correct" interpretation of anything. (That's why I don't consider myself christian, muslim, jew or any other religion).

Well I have a big imagination....and currently I see for example a good amount of the christians who do not believe in the virginity of the virgin Mary, or the infalibility of the Pope in faith's matters :)


Christians and jews lived under Islam domination for centuries in Spain. Sure they payed more tributes and were not allowed to build churches, but they were not exterminated. That is also a historical fact here in Spain. Wether Islam can do different or not, that is where we will never agree. :up:

Socalled radicals or extremists claim to rightfully attack the kind of Muslim moderates you refer to, Hitman. I conclude that these radicals are no perverts that distort Islam, but that they are in very in strong correspondence with Islam'S demands, because theose moderate muslims they accept to kill - are not muslim in their understanding. but if the murderers are representative for Islam ideology, than this tells something about the "Islmaic" identity of those that are considered to be moderate. Imagine to call some on the Nazi leaders a moderate, what would you mean by that? Is their a fascism that has sympathy for liberalism, democracy? what is democratic totalitarianism, how top define that? It canot be defined. Both ideologies are antagonists. some things simply do not go together. The moderate muslims you defend do exist, to varying degrees (someone, I think it was AL, just have linked a survey today in a parallel thread saying that 40% of British muslims were in favour of implementing sharia in GreatBritain. i remember a comparable survey from spring last year in Germany, where 35 or 45 %, I do not exactly remember, of muslim immigrants said they want Germany to change in favour of the Sharia. In both surveys it was said that a comparable ammount of muslim immigrants were aginst that. However, 40% is 40% - it is 40% too much). But as I said in thta essay, the more Shria spreads, the more the moderates in a Muslim community tends to turn into "fundamentalists". Remember the profile of the bombers in london? that they failed to quaolify for the typical terroist profile, but instead were representative for well-integrated, fully adopted Muslim immigrants in Britain. This was what raised quite some concern in the security community. Islam has it'as own inner dynamic, and this dynamic does not follow the rulkes we are used to from our european culture(s).

Let them create a new form of Neo-Islam. Okay. But not in our house as long as the success is not guaranteed. It is too dangerous. Let them do it in their places, so that we cannot get hiot by the blast iof it goes wrong. Like in the years before, I demand a.) more fairness in gloabl trade structures, and b.) a reduction of the West's dependency on Muslim oil. I would add the demand that we shall not give support to countries that do not drastically reduce their levels of corrutpion first, we have no obligation to sink billions of tax dollars into private pockets. You certainly remember that I criticised they way the effort of the Iranian liberals to start some reforms was let down by the West and especially was hindered by America. Let them have their attempt to modernize, okay. but not in our homes and communti8es. If you let one muslim in, you let the whole global Ummah in, in their understanding. We need a quarantine for self-protection. It is in our most vital interests.

Alternative interpretation of quran are not possible without deleting quran. The simpßle attempt to change quran is under death penalty, is an apostasy. You encourage the moderates. You do not realize that this inevatibly, necessarily will raise strongest violent reactions by islam to see them suffering the punishment they deserve by that. In a way you are spilling oil into the fire. islam can only change - if it can change at all: it hasn't done so since over a millenium - as a whole, it has actively supressed and killed any attempts to form teological traditons and philosophical schools and has shown far greater brutality and greater success in that than the church in medieval europe. Think of what our ancestors went through over centuries of bitter fight and suffering. All this - Islam still must go through. and it's message is far more rigid than the message of the church back then, Islam has far inferior preconditions to be successful in that painful reformation. No, not in our house, please, only in their own places. One should not play with bruning dynamite in one'S living room.

You said you want religion beeing practices in a tolerant and respectful way. That is very kind of you. ;) But be advised that Islam pays this respect only to Muslims, male Muslims, that means (women are not consdered to be humans) A dhimmi like you is forbidden to be treated on equal terms. It is written in islamic law that dhimmis shall be treated in a way that enforces them to realize their inferior status and that enfoces them to admit they are lower beeings, they must be made feeling subdued (Sura 9/26). this is the kind of tolerance you have to expect from living in Islam but beeing only a christian subhuman.

In that essay I adressed the distorted image we have on Cordoba and grenada. I wrote:
and what's more:

I leave out the popular m yth on the crusades, you can read it in that essay, if you want.

Concerning the history of your ancestors, i found your words too harmless. the reality that I take from the history books concerning the occupation of Spain gave me a far more grim and violent image. And you are wrong, partially Jews and Christans were exterminated during the ruling of the Almohades, in spain, and thorughout the muslim sphere. With bitter irony one could say that hunting Christians was their hobby. And the hunt goes on until today, at varying levels of intensity, while the Jews already got wiped out everywhere. I am not aware of any structural Jewish community in any Muslim country.

Oh please! Not again!

"It is [for them to chose between] conversion to Islam, payment of the poll tax (jizyah) or death."
- Ibn Khaldun

May I suggest you read up on the Greek revolution of 1821 to get an idea of why the Greek had had enough of Ottoman rule. Here are some examples from essays written at the time by John Quincy Adams, the 6th president of the United Sates.

“If ever insurrection was holy in the eyes of God, such was that of the Greeks against their Mahometan oppressors. Yet for six long years, they were suffered to be overwhelmed by the whole mass of the Ottoman power; cheered only by the sympathies of all the civilized world, but without a finger raised to sustain or relieve them by the Christian governments of Europe; while the sword of extermination, instinct with the spirit of the Koran, was passing in merciless horror over the classical regions of Greece, the birth-place of philosophy, of poetry, of eloquence, of all the arts that embellish, and all the sciences that dignify the human character. The monarchs of Austria, of France, and England, inflexibly persisted in seeing in the Greeks, only revolted subjects against a lawful sovereign. The ferocious Turk eagerly seized upon this absurd concession, and while sweeping with his besom of destruction over the Grecian provinces, answered every insinuation of interest in behalf of that suffering people, by assertions of the unqualified rights of sovereignty, and by triumphantly retorting upon the legitimates of Europe, the consequences naturally flowing from their own perverted maxims.�


“This pretended discovery of a plot between Russia and the Greeks, is introduced, to preface an exulting reference to the unhallowed butchery of the Greek Patriarch and Priests, on Easter day of 1822, at Constantinople, and to the merciless desolation of Greece, which it calls ‘doing justice by the sword’ to a great number of rebels of the Morea, of Negropont, of Acarnania, Missolonghi, Athens, and other parts of the continent.The document acknowledges, that although during several years, considerable forces, both naval and military, had been sent against the Greeks, they had not succeeded in suppressing the insurrection.�

(See John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad).

Morroco. Turkey. Even Iran.

But it's no picnic. The more secularized the society, the less threatening daily life is.

The ones you know well are likely to be moderate (i.e. ignoring a big part of the rules), or at least good at faking it. So even if there is a very big group of radicals, you're unlikely to know them personally, as they will avoid friendship with infidels.

An "acceptable muslim", for me, would not be one who refuses to take weapons and establish Islamic law here. That is a necessary condition, but it is not enough. To be acceptable, he/she should also resist any other muslim who does want Islamic law to rule Europe (and that goes against what muslims are supposed to do). How many of those "muslims" are here? And how do we know how far their loyalty goes? :hmm:

I did not know that. How big in size?