It's more than just some wild accusation out of the blue.

We have to look at it without taking advantage of hindsight. Not only was there Saddams long track record of using them, there's the stockpiles of WMD munitions he was known to have and which have never been accounted for (still). Then there's the stories from expat Iraqis about secret labs and experments and let's not forget that Saddam himself deliberately fostered the idea that he did have them whenever he thought it would be to his advantage.

Also, I can agree with you about improperly treating prisoners but no one should confuse that with the way our enemies treat their prisoners. As bad as humiliation and sleep deprivation might be, it is not the same thing as cutting off arms and legs, acid showers, rape rooms or mass executions.

As for the CiC being responsible for the excesses of the forces under his command, i'd agree, but also I feel that what is far more important is how his forces handle such abuses when they occur. The problems at Abu Grahib came to the worlds attention as the result of an ongoing investigation being conducted by the American military.

In any Army there will be some sadists, but when we find them in our ranks we remove and discipline them, unlike regimes like Saddams who would deliberately employ them as goons to keep his people under his thumb.

:lol: The US is like a big brother, you must poke and prod them to keep them on the toes, but in the end you still love them.

Hello to you too,

Well frankly yes it would, I have read the articles and reports from Sea Demon which states they have been found. But why isn't it on headlines around the world? Wouldn't it be a victory for Mr Bush, and his party? Instead Mr Bush has changed the reasons of war from WMDs, links to Alqueda to 'Freedom and Democracy' for the Iraqi peoples. Now why would you change the reasons for war unless the initial reasons were unfounded and false.

@August
Yes I agree the US Military handled it very well, but how many other cases have gone unreported? One shall never know. And yes it happens in all forces around the world, when you get sadists in uniforms, they believe they are God and can do what they like.

Why thank you Sea Demon, for being kind and editing it for me. But I gotta say it is a most interesting article.

One will never know how many criminal acts you've committed which have gone unreported either.

See? i can play that game too... :D

I agree about those articles. If it was something substantial you'd think that it would be everywhere in the media and would have learned about it before, not during a discussion on the Internet.

You're assuming that actors in international politics tell the truth when they give their reasons for military action, which isn't always the case. Reasons leaders give for going to war are often the ones that will be most likely to be accepted by their public and legitimize the war in their eyes. WMDs and terrorists were (are) easy to justify after 9/11. I believe that the administration genuinely believed that there WERE WMDs in Iraq and were a little bit surprised when they couldn't find them.

Spreading democracy could be or could not be one of these excuses to make war sound legitimate to the public. There are those that say that the administration launched a war to secure resources and bases in the Middle East. Stacking the deck for the future in an unstable and highly important area, strategically speaking. Which would all be fine with me, mind you.

I don't think that's why the admin did it, however. I really do believe that the Bush admin is serious about spreading democracy in the Middle East through the use of force, starting with Iraq as an outpost. I don't think that "Freedom and Democracy for the Iraqi people" is an excuse. It's the real reason they did it. If they really wanted oil and bases they wouldn't keep troops in the cities, it would be stupid to do so. They would stay in the rural areas and grab the bases and oil, which is similar to what the British did. And everybody knows resources were definitely their primary concern, they were an emperor.

:lol: Shhhhhhh ;)
I have been nothing but an angel all my life!

Why dismiss them out of hand. IT's NOT an internet discussion. Not only do they list sources, but the same info is found and backed up in the Kay report, and some info from 9/11 Commission. From where I come from, those reports are official. Not CNN or MSNBC news stories. The UN resolutions dilineate all reasons and legalities of invasion. Most of the weapons stuff comes directly from a CIA report. Not just an MSNBC piece covering the CIA report, only reporting what it likes and ignoring what it doesn't like. I actually quote and source from the real deal, and you ignore it as unsubstantial???? What gives?

Plus isn't it kind of obvious by now that the media outlets never report any of the good news out of Iraq? I think it's because most of these media people want the war to fail. Especially the U.S. media.

Sea Demon

:shifty: uh....yeah. :-j

I won't deny Mr Bush is trying to do the right thing for the USA, the western world and Iraq. But he is in charge and should be accountable for the stuff ups in Iraq and other places. But who remembers a certain Mr Ahmad Chalabi, who supplied this information to Mr Bush and co about WMD's and Al Queda links

I shall edit it for Sea Demon :D
- Chalabi was the head of the Iraqi National Congress, a dissident group organized for the purpose of overthrowing the regime of Saddam Hussein.
- The attacks of September 11 made Ahmad Chalabi. The Bush administration had already decided to attack Iraq, and then began casting about for evidence to support the decision which had already been made.
- Chalabi was the man who told Rumsfeld and the rest of the crew that an invasion and occupation of Iraq would be a cakewalk, that the people of Iraq would welcome us with flowers and joy.
-Ahmad Chalabi was the source for the 'intelligence' on the Iraqi threat that was offered to the American people. Chalabi was the man who claimed Iraq was in possession of vast stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.
-Chalabi was the man who claimed Hussein enjoyed deep operational connections with Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda terror network.
- The CIA has hard evidence that Mr. Chalabi and his intelligence chief, Aras Karim Habib, passed US secrets to Tehran, and that Mr Habib has been a paid Iranian agent for several years, involved in passing intelligence in both directions.

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.or...rticle&ID=1734

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May20.html
They are both American sites so you can't say its anti-American :D

So basically Mr Bush and co got duped in a war with Iraq. Not for WMD's, Al Queda links or 'Freedom and Democracy' for Iraq.
But for Iran and Mr Chalabi. And so Mr Bush should be held accountable for the destruction of Iraq.

Me smells a conspiracy theory brewing, Sea Demon. Soon you will be talking about 'Greys' in the US government :-j

On a serious note,
how can the media report anything good from Iraq, when it is in its death throes?

You crack me up so bad I almost can't stand it.Do you really think GWB is the supreme Emporer of the world or something?Did he just one day hatch this plan?...Wake Up!...The "ENTIRE" world or allied world of intelligence is reported to the best of my knowledge to have been in agreement with the facts pointing to this guy being a very unstable individual with literally his hand on some buttons.Are you going to gamble with "YOUR" family's life?I think what you should most obviously be saying to yourself in ALL honsety is "How the HELL did so many supposed intelligence agencys around the world come to the same conclusions?"Now...."they"...all of Americas allies save England and alot of others.........God Save The Queen BTW :) ALL let America hang out to dry....I realize it is the politicians too not the peoples..ya know what ...SCREW YOU BUDDY!First rule of gambling is never gamble with more than you can afford to lose...well we gambled and SADDAM is BUST BABY....I sleep just fine.Every soldier in Americas military know what they are signing up for and agree to enforce and protect my country...I love em all.

FREE GWB!!! :) FREE THE WORLD FROM WINNIES!!!....NO WINNIES!

What a thread...lol...You need to be a comic DAMO.

:cry: How offensive!! I mean no harm to the Queen, but I am a Republican, not a Monarchist

What is winnies? Do you mean winners? (sorry to hear that, you must lose alot to have this attitude) or weiners? (if this applies, you must be a nice person because a world free of weiners, is a much safer world for animals).

Anyhow 1 more post tommorrow morning, and than I take me bat and ball and disappear for at least 5 days

HRW with a big grain of salt.

More reports on HRW and other left-tilting NGOs can be found at Discover The Network and at NGO Monitor.

Agendas. Agendas.