I think it was Raymond Chandler who said "Everyone is the star of their own third-rate novel". I can't find the quote anywhere, but I'm pretty sure I didn't come up with it myself.

I couldn't agree more. As I've said, sometimes I'm not even sure of that. And as I've tried to explain to Castout, the person who absolutely insists on his reality and his sanity is the person who needs to learn to question them the most. That, or at least to ask the question "If I think I know, exactly how do I know?"

I know I exist. How do I know? How can I be sure?

I know I'm sane. How do I know? How can I be sure.

I know God exists. How do I know? How can I be sure.

The same is true for the person who insists there is no God. How do you know? How can you be sure?

The only thing I know for certain is what makes me happy. I like steak. I like vanilla ice cream, and a lot of other things. I don't know why, and I can't analyze it, but I know what I like. That's about it.

I'm no expert, and I can't say whether someone else exhibits symptoms of this or that, but I don't trust my own judgement, and I don't have much trust in people who claim to "know" anything, even about themselves. I, and they, usually turn out to be wrong.

Well "many many" can mean .01% if the group is large enough so you'll have to be more specific. As for being forced has anyone forced you to follow a religious law you didn't want to obey lately?

People kill each other for all kinds of reasons. Religion is certainly one of them but i'd submit that if all the earths religions suddenly vanished tomorrow (ain't gonna happen so atheists contain your glee) folks would just find other reasons to kill each other. It's human nature.

True words August, :yep:

In Germany, church members pay a mandatory, state-collected church tax, pretty much a unique case in the Western world - the state conspiates with the church to make church projects an state issue, supporting it by state'S offices. By the Basic Law, this is not allowed, but people seem to not care enough. It is pretty much like in the medieval.

Church project also mandatorily get indirectly supported by people having left the church - through the regular taxes. A church may pay 5-15% in building a new hospital, the other 85-95% get payed by the tax payer, anmd the church may shoulder 20% of the maintenance costs - and the hospital then gets handed into adminstration and possession of said church, and gets massive tax reliefs, and is called a "christian hospital" where in fact it is funded by public money for the most part.

I need to indirectly finance the church, whether I like it or not, whether I am hostile to the church or not. Can you imagine why folks like me are pissed? Getting taxed for a religious institution we dispise and have turned our backs on?

Regarding your country, you remember that video "Why do I care for religion" by an atheist author which I have linked to maybe 6-8 times now in the past years, do you, you can't have missed it. It lists plenty of examples were Christians' belief discriminates against non-believers being unable to run for public offices or needing to live by believer'S laws and legislations. I could also refer to the fact - check youtube, there were so many films I watche dover the years - that in many communities in some areas of your country, mainly rural places, atheists are hiding their sentiments due to massive fear over the intolerance and discrimination by the Christian community dominating the place, which leads as far as public mobbing, threats of violence, excluding thekm from job oppoortunities, and even acts of arbitrary justice.

Im sure you know this. Threads about this there have been often enough, and you surely do not walk through your real life with closed eyes.

We have mandatory church tax over here too. Think it's something like 1 or 2 percent
of your income or something like that. :hmmm: (if you are a member of the church naturally)

Wonder when I can be arsed to leave the church, been possible to do it online
since 2005 with no hassle, just too lazy. :O:

The church thanks you for your contribution to the statistics, I'm sure.

I'm amazed anyone would ever consider allowing you anywhere near a church...nevermind in one :DL

I would submit that "human nature" is driven by society and very changeable. Our actions are in accordance with the norms of our cultural terms of reference; persons deviating outside of those perimeters find themselves officially sanctioned or socially isolated from the main stream.

Think about it, for the vast majority of the history of civilization institutionalized pederasty, mass murder, slavery, torture, infanticide, human sacrifice and genocide were all common cultural practices and so natural in their societies. There's no "moral relativism" involved here, all of the above behaviors should be considered abhorrent today but all were entirely acceptable by societies in other places and other times.

Our societies change, modifying the nature of what was "right" and so changing "human nature" itself. Societies continue to change and most of the above behaviors are present somewhere in the world today, only now most consider them to be unacceptable. Such is the veneer of civilization and we would do well to recall that the idea of human rights as opposed to citizen rights was born a mere 250 years or so ago. Before the philosophical musings of the 18th Century, starting perhaps with Thomas Paine, the very concept of universal rights was essentially non-existent. Once one qualifies a "right to life" killing becomes socially acceptable. If taking a human life was as socially unacceptable as pederasty then no amount of reasoning would justify doing so.

The classic cop-out argument that people will always kill one another because it is "human nature" is just camouflage for "people will always find reasons to kill each other because it is so easy to rationalize doing so".

"Human nature"...a pleasant word to use..:hmmm:

Ya, that is a good quote, though I think it aims more at our own self centered behavior, versus the uncertainty of "reality".

The interesting thing with schizophrenics, is that doubt is not possible for them. Even when medicated they still often have views which cannot be changed by them, no matter how much counter evidence is offered. They exist in an absolute form of reality in a sense. They are also very logical too, as virtually everything spawning from the initial delusion often makes perfect sense, if you accept the base delusion as true.

Anyhow I am going to pull out that famous quote by Descartes, "I think therefor I am". It is actually a misquote, and not exactly what he meant (as he later wrote a footnote about). What he really meant was more along the lines of "I experience, I am", with the idea that the one thing you cannot doubt, or be deceived into believing you have, is consciousness (AKA the witness, not the medical definition). Content of consciousness (percepts, memories, etc.) however is something to be doubted, as we could easily be fooled.


Well some of the others brought up some counter arguments, so I will not dwell long here. There are though plenty of countries, and also periods of history where you were forced to follow a specific religion, or risk death, torture, etc.

I will say that most organized religions that I am familiar with, tend to portray their holy books as being the absolute word of God, and that most devout people tend to believe as their religion demands (though not all, there are plenty of religious people who do not accept things verbatim, and there are plenty of posers who pretend, or turn the teachings on their ear).

In a sense true, though you have to admit, religious belief has often motivated many wars and unspeakable acts, either on its own inherent nature, or by the manipulations of those in power. Religion is a very effective galvanizing force, and can even persuade people to willingly sacrifice themselves for that religion. That perhaps is one of the most interesting aspects of religion and religious fervor, as I have difficulty of thinking of anything else which could so persuade a person to give up their life with premeditation (this is also why Nazism became a religious entity in its own right, and on purpose). Religion seems to be the key component to fanaticism, as it offers unquestioning belief, which can then be shaped and directed.

I should though perhaps clarify something. I do not inherently hate religion on its own, I hate what people often do with it, and do to it. I would be happier if the world was free of organized religion, as I feel it tends to divide, breed intolerance (and violence), and isolates. This does not mean that I think the world should be free of personal religions or beliefs, nor do I feel that people should or should not believe in a creator entity. I do feel though that they should not be able to justify their actions because of what they believe.

I have also heard many things from believers that just make my jaw drop in shock. Where if it hadn't been said because of religious belief, most people would find the idea or statement either utterly absurd, worthy of total ridicule, horrifying beyond belief, or just utterly insane. Yet when cloaked in religion, it becomes acceptable, even protected. Case in point.

I knew this guy in university, he was a pretty nice guy, of good intellectual ability, and a devout Christian (Baptist if I recall), anyhow we got into a discussion about it one day, and he told me that anyone who did not believe, exactly as he did (the specific version of Baptist he is) would instantly go to hell, no matter the life they lead (good or bad), and with out any judgment. All that mattered is what you believed in at the moment of death. You could furthermore convert on your deathbed and be granted instant access to heaven. So naturally I took his argument to the extreme, and asked him that say if Hitler, who had caused the death and suffering of at least tens of millions of people, right before he died he converted to your branch of Christianity, he would go straight to heaven? With out blinking, he said yes. I shook my head and walked away never to speak to him again (At least I didn't tell him where he could go stick his God, tempting as it was).

You are right though, any old excuse often will do for people to do horrible things to each other. Religious belief though, does offer the perfect excuse, after all what is a better reason than "The creator of existence told us to kill the unbelievers".



Moving away from that, I am going to write a little about my views on God. My attitude, if it is not obvious, is that of an agnostic. I neither believe nor disbelieve about the existence of a supreme creator. If one exists, such an entity is so far beyond our imagination or comprehension, that it is really pointless to try to grasp it. My fundamental issue with religion, is this arrogant view that we can know such an entity, and dare even speak for it. God cannot be the god of the Bible, or the Torah, or the Koran, or all the other holy books. The gods we create are as deeply flawed, even contradictory, as they are entities of our creation (being deeply flawed ourselves, we cannot create perfect gods). They are also generally used as a means of control of the populace by people in power (or people seeking it).

I was lucky I guess, I was raised free of religion from the start, though if I chose I could investigate a religion freely as a child (something my sister did for a bit, though more for social reasons I think). As such I was free from the doctrines, and dogma, which I think clouds judgment. A question I often ask religious people, is if you had been raised under another religion, would you have honestly converted to your current one. They invariably say yes, usually not even pausing to really think about it. I think that they are deceiving themselves as most stay within the religion they were raised in (or are not strong believers to begin with and convert for reasons other than faith, like love), or leave religion behind.

Like I said, religion is just the excuse. Easily substituted.

Sure, though sometimes it is the cause directly too, because of scriptures, or other things that command the faithful to kill or force conversion on someone else.

You really think that without those scriptures to justify their actions that people wouldn't still do all those bad things?

Pretty sure they would. :yep:

But like NeonSamurai pointed, there's a lot of cases in history where the cause has
been religion. :hmmm:

Here be something to get a better picture:
http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html

Oh and no, I'm not claiming that site is 100% accurate, but it does list sources, so one can always check them out. :yeah:

Violence would still take place if we stop calling for violence. But we see even more violence when we actively call for it, and motivate it by sending an according explciit message. Did I say "probably"?

It's bad enough that there is violence emerging for various reasons. But we must not even explicitly ask for it, and train groups of people for it, and lowering people's internal inhibition levels. Most people, if not all, have an inbuild inhibition level, and before they start to not care anymore for smashing open other people's skulls or hacking off their limbs or shooting bullets at them, they need to live in a social context that desensitizes and deafens their senses (for example the proverbial violent social low-class suburbian with youth gangs and high poverty, or a tribal primitive communityx where sacrificing humans is a cultural habit), or they need to get psychologically brainwashed (professional military training).

Spiking emotions, rage, passion, uncontrolled anger however always can make us lose our learned self-control or our inbuild inhibitions failing. Some sooner, others later.

But still - it is not the same.