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- - plane crash near Smolensk, Polish president on board (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167460)

please dont tell me this was a conspiracy...

...the tradedy is enough...

god bless to the families involved.

flag4

There is no conspiracy from what can be told - now, it looks like pilot error nothing more.

Additionally, the Russian response to the situation has been stellar to say the least.

BTW: The NYT did a pictorial here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lag-Poland.gif

On a side note, I'm saddened to read that some wish the former president buried in Wawel. That is wrong on so many levels...

Katyń. I think this was Stalin vendetta for the 1920 Warsaw battle, Susexx.
Bolshevik army was stopped and defeat by Polish army under Józef Piłsudski
command. Now this is history, but if we really like to change realtions between our Country's, we can't build on lies, Susexx.

However I am optymist today, especially after this what Putin do in these days and what President Miedwiediew Said. Eaven if this was only political gesture, this was a conciliatory gesture and very important.

"...the people remember from all history only Katyn"

Not only, but 20000 Polish best patriots was murdered there, and most of them was officers.
Good to know, huh?

Lenin and Stalin are dead and eaven if they still have admirers, there is also
many good peoples in Russia and in Poland, peoples who knows true history, but now they want to build better relations between our nations leaning on the future, not the past.

Newest simulation of this tragedy on the picture:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9...otmapaamie.jpg

The official investigation report by the Russian authorities has been released and also handed over the the Poles. It blames pilot error due to psychological pressure not to upset Kaczanski and kind of intimidation by the presence of (slightly alcoholised) Polish air force commander in the cockpit. This, so the report, drove the pilots to take unjustified risks and to ignore repeated Russian warnings that the weather due to low visibility at the destination airport made a diversion to an alternate airport highly advisable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12170021

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1572550)

It blames pilot error due to psychological pressure not to upset Kaczanski and kind of intimidation by the presence of (slightly alcoholised) Polish air force commander in the cockpit.

before writing that crap you could have at least gone here
http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigat...01.html#metka1

and read the whole report. I saw the whole conference and there was nothing about "upsetting" anyone. They stated that there was a general pressure in the cockpit but the whole story about Kaczynski is your typical garbage. Polish experts who were investigating the crash stated sth like a week ago that they gonna write their own report coz the one provided above blames only the pilots and states that the ground control did nothing wrong.

This morning I made a mistake. I checked my ignore list and deleted three names, amongst them yours, Kranz. And first thing I must read from you is your usual friendliness that greets me with "before writing this crap". I was directly refering to the news article at the BBC, which i quote below for you seem to lack the skill to check a provided link. If you lack the patience or intellectual capacity to read the providced article and deny to see in principle the difference between content that I produce by myself, and content that I just mirror from another source, then this is your problem. So is your literal kindness and politeness.

And so you go back to my ignore list, just one hour after I deleted you there. And this time, for it is the second time, it will be forever. So save your time to answer to me. I'm done with you.

Quote:

The Polish crew failed to heed bad weather warnings because they were afraid of displeasing President Lech Kaczynski, Russian investigators said.

The presence of Poland's air force commander in the cockpit drove them to take "unjustified risk", they said.

(...)

Tatyana Anodina, head of the Inter-state Aviation Committee (Mak) in Moscow, told reporters that the final report had been handed to Polish colleagues.

“The presence of the Polish air force commander on the flight deck up to the aircraft's impact with the ground put psychological pressure on the crew captain to decide on continuing descent in a situation of unjustified risk, dominated by the goal of making a landing at any cost”

The Soviet-made Tu-154 plane, she said, had been in good condition when it took off from Warsaw en route to Smolensk's Severny airport, and it suffered no engine or flight system failures.

Before impact, there was no fire, explosion or other damage in the air, she continued.

The disaster resulted directly, she said, from the crew's failure to heed weather warnings and land at a different airport.

"During the flight, the crew were repeatedly informed of inadequate weather conditions at the destination airport," she said.

"Despite this, the crew of the Tu-154 did not take a decision to switch to a back-up airfield. This may be considered as the start of the extreme situation aboard the plane."

The Russian investigation found "substantial deficiencies" in the training given to Captain Arkadiusz Protasiuk and his co-pilot, Major Robert Grzywna, Ms Anodina said.

The two men had feared a "negative reaction" from President Kaczynski if they switched to the other airfield, according to the Russian investigator.

"The main passenger's expected negative reaction... placed psychological pressure on crew members and influenced the decision to continue the landing," she said.

The jet's flight recorder caught one of the crew saying "He'll get mad", in an apparent reference to the Polish president's determination not to alter his schedule.

Poland's air force commander, Gen Andrzej Blasik, added to the pressure by entering the flight deck, Ms Anodina noted.

"The presence of the Polish air force commander on the flight deck up to the aircraft's impact with the ground put psychological pressure on the crew captain to decide on continuing descent in a situation of unjustified risk, dominated by the goal of making a landing at any cost," she said.

According to pathology tests, alcohol was found in the blood of Gen Blasik in a concentration of 0.6 grams per litre - just above the drink-driving limit for most EU states.

Investigators found that a top Polish foreign ministry official, Mariusz Kazana, had also entered the flight deck at one point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1572635)

This morning I made a mistake. I checked my ignore list and deleted three names, amongst them yours, Kranz.

:rotfl2:
Well he didn't spent much time off your list:DL

TBH, Kranz, I can imagine why Skybird has you on his ignore list. There are a thousand ways in which you could have said what you wanted to say, most of which are a lot more friendly. It's not the first time I've got this feeling about you, so you might want to change something before more members start to dislike you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranz (Post 1572593)

Polish experts who were investigating the crash stated sth like a week ago that they gonna write their own report coz the one provided above blames only the pilots and states that the ground control did nothing wrong.

Doesn't sound very scientific, does it? "We don't like the outcome of the investigation, so we're gonna change the results a little so that it matches with what we want"

If the weather was that bad that the Russians can point to the fact that the Poles should have diverted to another field, why was the original field still an option? Why hadn't it been closed due to weather?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFish (Post 1572709)

TBH, Kranz, I can imagine why Skybird has you on his ignore list. There are a thousand ways in which you could have said what you wanted to say, most of which are a lot more friendly. It's not the first time I've got this feeling about you, so you might want to change something before more members start to dislike you.

such a dirty metal freak like you should mind his own business. do it please and stop commenting on my posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1572635)

And so you go back to my ignore list, just one hour after I deleted you there. And this time, for it is the second time, it will be forever. So save your time to answer to me. I'm done with you.

personally I don;t give a damn if I am or not on your ignore list. Sure you can reject the reality. It's your choice. I guess I'm writing this in vain now but w/e. What you did was just quoting one article who quoted one lady who has a very bad opinion among the many aviation experts. This "MAK" institution has NEVER blamed Russian side on ANY plane accident which took place in Russia or former Soviet Union. Of course the pilots are to be blamed for what happened and this was stated by the report. The report however doesn't point to ANY quotation that would clearly show ANY kind of pressure. General Blasik (the one who drank alcohol, or at least the report states it) was allowed to be in the cockpit. Polish military regulations do not forbid this. All the newspapers are saying about "pressure", the stenographic record was published long time ago and NO ONE could prove that "pressure" to be spoken. Skybird was a master of speculation here, from the very beginning of that thread. The report has 184 pages but he decided to post sth that is NOT there and disregard anything else. There are plenty of things which were "forgotten" by this report simply bcoz they were inconvenient for the Russian side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranz (Post 1572731)

such a dirty metal freak like you should mind his own business.

Totally uncalled for. :down:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFish (Post 1572709)

Doesn't sound very scientific, does it? "We don't like the outcome of the investigation, so we're gonna change the results a little so that it matches with what we want"

that's how it was done by the russian side. try to find in that report ANYTHING about the ground control in Smolensk. There is nothing. Medical reports concerning their health status after the accident are gone, the tapes which should record the radar data aren't in the report. etc. besides- I bet this is the first time you've heard about that crash and probably you have no bloody idea what it is all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen (Post 1572748)

Totally uncalled for. :down:

where were you when he was commenting on my posts in an ironic way? take a look at some other threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranz (Post 1572753)

where were you when he was commenting on my posts in an ironic way? take a look at some other threads.

He still wasn't calling you names. I've never thought you as a troublemaker. I've never thought him as a troublemaker. You're both nice guys and I like you both. I just think that you're getting a little overheated right now; it happens to all of us, myself included. Step away for a few hours and you'll feel better.