SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)
-   General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)
-   -   Well... they did it (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=158046)

CaptainHaplo 06-06-10 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCorrado (Post 1412963)

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


BAM!! Your argument is shredded, and your premise is denied.- Have a nice day.

Well JoeCorrado - it seems you have a problem with the meaning of words if you think that... Lets look at the meaning of the words, shall we?

Provide:
–verb (used with object)
1. to make available; furnish: to provide employees with various benefits.
2. to supply or equip: to provide the army with new fighter planes.
3. to afford or yield.
4. Law. to arrange for or stipulate beforehand, as by a provision or proviso.
5. Archaic. to prepare or procure beforehand.

–verb (used without object)
6. to take measures with due foresight (usually fol. by for or against).
7. to make arrangements for supplying means of support, money, etc. (usually fol. by for): He provided for his children in his will.
8. to supply means of support (often fol. by for): to provide for oneself.

In other words - Provide for the Common Defense means the Federal government has a responsibility to "make it happen".

Promote:
1. to help or encourage to exist or flourish; further: to promote world peace. 2. to advance in rank, dignity, position, etc.
3. Education. to put ahead to the next higher stage or grade of a course or series of classes.
4. to aid in organizing (business undertakings).
5. to encourage the sales, acceptance, etc., of (a product), esp. through advertising or other publicity.
6. Informal. to obtain (something) by cunning or trickery; wangle.

Note that promote means the federal government is to HELP, ENCOURAGE and AID in making something happen - not REQUIRE it. In other words, they have no authority to MAKE anyone do anything "for their own good".

Words have meaning my friend, it helps if you know what those meanings are.......

CaptainHaplo 06-06-10 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1413109)
Haplo and GR: Next time there is an argument about what is supposed to be different about our country, please don't say "Of the people, by the people, FOR the people." I agree that the original concept was to protect individual freedom and autonomy for the citizens, but the wording has been argued about for as long as the ideas and ideals have. Nit-picking the wording to prove your point doesn't prove anything.

Steve - your capitalization of the word FOR makes the perfect point - its not JUST one part of that at a time. Its intended to be a goverment that does FOR the People in the ways Of the people that they want BY the people that are duly elected. Not just one section. The issue with this mess is that it may be FOR the people - but it is not OF the people since the people didn't support it.

As for nit-picking the wording - as I said in my previous post here - words mean things. Substituting those words for other ones with "similiar" meaning changes the original intent. So for accuracy sake we should be VERY concerned with the meaning of the words. It is not "nit-picking" when one insists that something means what it says, vs it meaning something other than what it says.

Happy Times 06-06-10 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antikristuseke (Post 1202320)
Providing general welfare includes health care in my book. Then again, I am of the opinion that hospitals should not run for profit, but that the wages of the staff be kept competitive.

That being said, this will probably fail because when you have two parties fighting for power which are nigh on identical in action, but diametrically opposed in rethoric it is hard to get something done.

Im all for equal education and health care for everyone in Finland but im not sure even that could ever work in an multi ethnic and cultured US.

But social welfare i would like to see cut even here, it is starting to be abused by the immigrants and ethnic Finns alike.

As long as most of the users share the same moral values, responsibility for oneself, it works.

Sailor Steve 06-06-10 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1413214)
As for nit-picking the wording - as I said in my previous post here - words mean things. Substituting those words for other ones with "similiar" meaning changes the original intent. So for accuracy sake we should be VERY concerned with the meaning of the words. It is not "nit-picking" when one insists that something means what it says, vs it meaning something other than what it says.

The problem is that words mean different things to different people, as shown in the 'religion' discussions. It doesn't say 'separation', but that is exactly what Madison intended when he worded it the way he did.

I prefer to see things like health care handled at the State level, and firmly believe the Federal government should be solely devoted to foreign affairs and refereeing between the states, but if you're going to insist that precise wording is everything, you lose right off the bat. It specifically says "Promote the general WELFARE". Does that mean welfare as we see it today, or does it mean something other than what it actually says?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2025 Subsim®
"Subsim" is a registered trademark, all rights reserved.