No, that is the only rule that SHOULD be necessary.:up::rotfl:

Keep doing what you do. You're a great guy.

See that's the point, I do what I do because I want to, I don't need any "rules". On the other hand I don't care if people do things my way or another, and I surely wouldn't want to even pretend imposing "rules" upon others.
If there were rules against my way of doing things, would I follow them ? You bet I wouldn't. And who would be able to force me to ? You guessed it, nobody. So would these rules be helpful for the community ? No. Only result is that people who posted little on their knowledge would now post strictly nothing. Hardly helpful is it ?
So let people do whatever they want the way they want, and write whatever they want in the "legal" part of their mod's readme as it's the case since years, ranging from "you can make profit with my mod, no need to credit me" to "you can't even play that mod without contacting my lawyer first", and let the users decide if they like it or not, and if they want to play it or not.
I'll stress on that, the biggest problem I've had on this forum is not about people doing things in whatever way, it's about people being disrespectful & insulting just because you don't share their vision.

Penelope

We are involved to the extent that we wish the arguing to stop. If you would prefer to have us just slap on the brig avatar for 30 days for all involved, we can accomodate. No problem. This avenue has been discussed at length. We would much prefer everyone getting along. Some other avenues have been discussed and Neal is attempting to find a common ground and resolution to the conflicts that will statisfy all. Suggestions are welcome and so is your resolution in your post to 'cooperate and behave'.


In short, we as moderators and the site owner (Neal) have been discussing two resolutions for our problem at hand. They are as follows:

1) Cease and desist any attempt to calm a riot by a moderator in any particular thread by brig time up to 30 days. No posting by the moderator, close thread and ban. All involved, no disecting of the thread Seems kind of harsh when in all reality, we are all adults here and resorting to these measure is not the way to go.


2) A separate SH4 Uboat forum for modding.
a. Anyone found to be jumping the wall on a commando raid is to refer to resolution 1.


So, as JC stated, if you have come to this thread and felt the urge to jump right in with a counter claims, stop, get some coffee, tea, and think of post with some answers and resolutions. Neal and the moderators are asking for answers and resolutions from you, the member.

The podium is open for suggestions and resolutions. Thus far, my vote is for a separate forum concerning the uboats and the fleets. Lets face it, some members just like one or the other. For some reason, it does not mix well in the same pot. I believe these members should be able to enjoy the theater of their choice without having to dig through threads that do not interest them. I'm also casting a vote for the ban function and immediately deploying the ban.

Penelope, any suggestions on how to handle the current situation?

In any event, the petition should (there's that darn word again!:rotfl:) be amended to say that nothing in the petition is intended to restrict or control any actions or rights of the owner and moderators of Subsim. It is strictly a statement of goals by the participating modders to produce a healthy, collaborative, friendly modding community working not for personal glory or profit, but the betterment of the Silent Hunter franchise and the greater enjoyment of its players.

Point taken, and goals that appear to be worthy of our efforts. :up:

Sadly, the petition (which, by the way, no one is "obliged" to sign) shoudln't even be necessary. But it (or something like it) is necessary. If common sense and decency are not practiced by members of the community, there need to be some guidelines as to the practices that aren't tolerated and the ramifications of said practices, period.


Is the petition flawed? Of course it is, it was drawn up by human beings, who are inherently flawed. If perfection was the goal, it would never be finished. Its intention, however, was not flawed. Its intention was to attempt to foster an atmosphere of cooperation and conducive to progress, which, oddly enough, was the atmosphere that existed before said "attitudes" arrival.

When I came to the SH4 community, I was completely surprised by the maturity and openness of the SH4 community. There was an air of cooperation around here that isn't seen, normally, in a group this size. Everyone worked together to get the "job" done. And, to a certain extent, that atmosphere has continued. Personally, I'd like to see it continue unabated, but there are certain folks with attitudes (notice the use of the word attitudes, not affiliations) that disrupt that atmosphere (and not for the better).

I have no axe to grind with any group in this community. My axe is for the individuals whose attitudes and egos screw up a good thing. Sign the petition, don't sign the petition, I don't care either way. I signed, not just because I was one of "the 7", but because I agree with its principles. As far as the sharing of tools and knowledge go, it's difficult for me to imagine a reason for not sharing a tool or knowledge other than to stoke one's own ego or restrict the abiltiy of others to accomplish a task. If some one will please inform me of any other possible reasons, please enlighten me. I will tell you in advance that I won't accept "because I worked hard on it" as a reason. We all work hard on what we create and we share it.

Simply put, act like an adult and be a non-negative addition to the community or don't come here to play. Affiliation with a group should not (and was not intended) to be a prejudgement of said person. The persons actions speak for themselves.

Personally, if it matters, I think we need to have forums devoted to the theater of choice. If a person wants to participate in both, fine, but not running to one side or the other and flaming the theater or the folks devoted to it. I know the Uboat fans don't care to wade through a ton of Pacific theater stuff to get at what they want to see and I don't want to wade through a bunch of Uboat stuff to get to the stuff I'm interested in.

And thus back to my statement toward the beginning of the thread that good fences make good neighbors. They are not to restrict entry, but to make concrete and visible the boundaries between mutually respectful communities. Boundaries and their wise management are keys to all personal happiness and productivity. Wise boundaries produce freedom, not restrictions. They would also serve to make it absolutely clear who is in the wrong, where now there can be only inconclusive finger pointing.

Ahhhhh... but there is, and always has been. People either just ignore it or think it doesn't apply to them.

As stated before "legislating" who gets to play with whose toys is far beyond Subsim.com's control or interest. How people act, and how they respond to other's actions is very much in our interest.

And no one should confuse the generous amount of tolerance and forbearance that has been shown up to now with they way things are going to be in the future.

JCC

Nice threat.

This is a very worthy goal and one that with some understanding of each others goals just might come to fruition with open and meaningful discussion. If any one of us steps back and takes a good healthy look at the modding talent and imagination on this forum, what could be with sharing and assisting each other has the potential to go beyond even our wildest imagination. Everyday I'm floored by something new, improved or implemented in this game by our modders. Although competition is healthy, there are forms of competition that are not healthy. We are in a unhealthy competition at the moment. The question is what is the competiton the community is engaged in? Fame, glory, self-satisfaction, wine women and song? The competition should be, who is the first in line to help another modder overcome an issue. Who is first in line to share a new discovery so others do not struggle and maybe even perhaps improve on an original idea!!!


Here is a beautiful example of working together in a open forum. All adding a solution to a problem. A GWX developer lending a helping hand and helping improve upon it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138507


This is colaboration and it is good. This is a trend we would like to keep going. There should be plenty enough satifaction for helping each other. In my eyes, helping others obtain their goals in modding garners more respect from me then have the best mod available, crushing the hopes and dreams of others to mod the game, not accepting others ideas as valid or worth looking into and failure to bolstering them to follow it through to the end is a travesty in itself. Not just for the individual, but the entire community.

This is up to the members to make it work, grow and be fruitful for all.

KL, this currently not a threat but a reality to the situation. It has come to that. However, this thread is not about possible sanction upon an individual or individuals who want to continue arguing over mods. We are looking for solutions to bring harmony between theaters. I think it is obtainable if all are willing. This is the goal. Not a continuation of hard feelings over past issues. I see from your post here you are not ready to come with a open mind over this debacle that has stewed for over two years. It has now come to boil. We need to work together to turn off the heat. Let us know when you are ready.

You are welcome to interpret it anyway you like.

It was meant only as a statement of fact.

JCC

:o was on page 2 last time I looked
Work gets in the way of everything

Read it - the petition that is

While I totally agree that the them and us\ATO v PTO BS has to stop there are some things I cant agree on and others which are downright accusatory to one team in particular

define oneupmanship ?
Sure people are going to with hold knowledge
We all do it
Especially during construction of a mod
No point releasing a mod if everybody has prior knowledge of all in it
Everybody likes surprises

Now there are some on here I have asked for help from who have willingly gave that help
And some that wouldnt p*** on me if on fire let alone answer a PM

Personally speaking I have a long way to go in learning all the SH4 files so cant really say I have any knowledge in anything
BUT
Take a look over the SH3 forum and am always willing to impart any knowledge I have
( And that goes for the bulk of GWX dev team if not all )
Now that may be after a mods release and not before as stated above but if I can help or give out any knowledge I do

There are many people on here who write programs to aid what they are modding
Are they released ?
The bulk no - and not speaking of GWX here but many others
Sometimes a program is written but its not the best
It may do part of what you want it to but is never going to be good enough for release
Why ?
Because you dont have the time to make it perfect nor the time to spend answering questions
So why release it ?
Short answer you wont

Directed at GWX
Ummmm if a group of modders wish to have their own forum thats their business
You yourself were quite happy to be a member of a closed forum
Sometimes things are best left in private
Ideas get mooted then booted after not working properly or being unworkable
Again why keep answering questions on "how is this doing" "where has that gone"
No time for actual modding

Personally I feel that the 3 examples from the petition above are ALL aimed at GWX

Yeah I know you have history with GWX
And so do a few others
SH3 modding wars were nasty and NO ONE wants go back there
At least I hope so
I know no one from GWX does

We ( GWX ) knew we wouldnt be welcome over here and how some people perceive us
Group tactics etc - even though we wear a GWX sig doesnt mean everytime we speak its on GWX's behalf - we are all individual people that share a common interest
From day one when it was announced SH4 would be PTO the divide started
I have no interest in the PTO at all
Is that wrong ?
No
My choice
I knows what I likes
Doesnt mean to say I feel any scorn or derision towards the PTO and fleet boats or mods that are made for them
Just means out of my scope of interest

What needs to stop is the flaming\baiting and downright vindictiveness
By ALL sides
Modding is modding
Whatever theatre you play in

Live and let live

BBW
This is what we are here to do. BTW, I agree on just about everything else you posted. Seems sensible. At any rate and in your view, would a SH4 uboat forum for modding help in keeping the interests of either theater in their respective corners, free to mod as they see fit? In doing so, would members keep from going over the wall for a drunken covert operation? I would hope it would. But again, it is up to the members to make it work.