Reading between the lines a little here. The rub is the social enviorment differences in the Sh4 and Sh3 mod forums, which tend to be opposites of each other. One is open source, the other is proprietary and keeps things close to the chest. Personnaly i got better things to worry about these days.

You know as well as the rest of us that were around for the release of SH3 that SH4 modding & development is exactly where SH3 was at the same point after release. You can still go back through the archives and see mod discussion & values/result sharing from the outset of SH3.

Now, the fundamental change in SH3 came about with the advent of the first 'SuperMods' RuB & IUB where, if every file change or advancement was discussed/openly shared in the community, the authors would spend 100% of their time in User Support mode.

Fast forward nearly 2 years and you find GWX at the forefront, however even this mod is subject to the same restrictions in terms of 'openness' of file changes etc. You can imagine what it would be like to explain Hex changes, Dat Nodes etc to anyone that will listen. Hell, some users can't even manage a clean installation.:lol:

I will say this openly, give SH4 time to develop as it is now but eventually a 'Supermod' will come along with a multitude of file changes that by any stretch of the imagination cannot validate/explain/share all the changes and how they were done. It's natural evolution. It's happened before, it will happen again.

Oh, and FYI, SH3 & SH4 are both 'Open Source' with the tools currently available. Users just need to do their homework.:yep: Anything a prospective modder could need or want is somewhere on the Subsim Forums.

Isn't the whole point of a supermod to alleviate this problem? Install, patch, slap the mod in, and you're good to go?

The problem we're probably running across is when someone wants to tweak the supermod... "Gee, I installed this super mod, then I installed this mod, and then that mod" and that's when things break, users get irritated (and high & mighty, I deal with the general public and their interactions with computers, lemme tell ya... high & mighty doesn't describe it sometimes), and that gets the modder's feather fluffed up.

The only way I see beating this tendency is to know it, and avoid it. Yeah, modders are busy... but the rest of us experienced folk (maybe not us... you experienced folk?) on the forums can probably handle basic file comparisons, seeing what mods overwrite what... maybe we need a few folks to volunteer to help sort out mod conflicts, and document what's what.

Does that sound at all realistic, reasonable, and likely to work?

Well, yes and no. There are already a couple of big SH4-mods (aka hundreds of files and hundreds of MB's), yet they are actively and openly developed. I see that at some point a mod may grow so large parts of the discussion will move behind closed doors. Makes perfect sense to me. However, you don't have to keep a lid on everything, test everything in private for a year, etc., while in the process profit from knowledge that others gain and share in public.
If a group of modders does it this way (it happens all the time even by a team as small as 2 modders), that's ok, but I'm just saying you don't 'have' to.

I agree there's no point in documenting every single change made for a mod. However, what would be great is if certain new discovered technologies/tricks/hacks are documented/discussed, during or even after they have been implemented/released. This can be seperate from the mod itself in dedicated [TEC] type threads or tutorials. This way there's no need for others to reinvent it. And while such documentation may not be understood by everyone, there's always a few that will.

In all truth I had a real hard time developing S3D in the first 6 months, for the lack of public documentation of the file formats (after 2+ years SH3?!), and most public threads that did exist where incomplete, or partially incorrect. So I had to debug most of it myself.

A good example is just a couple of days ago where privateer offered me the specs of animation data. In the end sharing is the only way forward. :up:

Back on topic, I can appreciate the addon for what it offers us. New features and choice. How the pacific will be pushed aside I don't see. People that enjoyed the pacific played SH4, those that enjoyed uboats played SH3. This will change to: people that enjoy the pacific play SH4_1.4/1.5 US campaign/mods, and people that enjoy uboats play SH3/SH4_1.5 uboat campaign/mods (and of course the group that plays both). All the same to me...

@ skwasjer

I agree (in principle), however with large supermods, closed beta testing is the only sensible way to conduct development. With closed testing, the testers can be hand picked for their personal understanding of how the (SH3/SH4) game works. For example, what good is a tester that flags every stock bug up to the devs because he/she does not know what is fixable/unfixable. I, for one, would not like to keep track of numerous threads and hundreds/thousands of user reports.

If you like, you could compare GWX 2.0 to an open BETA test as the current development of 2.1 is incorporating user identified issues as well as containing new content. Until the Dev crew feels their work is ready for the public, it's much easier to contain the discovered issues on a private forum and within a small testing crew.

Now, having said that, your editing tool is revolutionary in the history of the SH series and as such, the issues you have encountered have only been touched upon briefly in the past. So I can understand the frustration you must have encountered during development. As far as I can tell, your tool (most basic analogy) combines all the required tools (Pack3d, Hex Edit, Text Extract & MiniTweaker) for file adjustments that 'joe' user could possibly need, effectively making every user a possible modder with a minimal knowledge requirement of what does what.

As for sharing discovered knowledge, I feel that this happens, however, there are only a few modders in the SH3 field who are still pushing the boundarys of what's possible and they choose to do this via PM or email, rather than dumbfounding the rest of us dummies with the details.:lol:

You know, that's pretty spot on. The ultimate goal of any supermod should be to make the game appealable to everyone without the need for additional added mods. I remember when I first arrived here looking for improvements to SH3. I went away with 50+ mods enabled in my basic install via JSGME and questions about will A work with B, or if I add D, will A still work. Modders & Users nightmare.

I guess guys, time will tell.

Can I throw in a view on here. I understand your 'Defense" of the GWX team danlisa, but doesn't the fact you have to defend them point out a problem.

Fast forward to the RFB team. Because of the structure on subsim, you are correct. it makes communicating and discussing a bit difficult.

So we set up a way to exchange info external to subsim, but there's the biggest difference. I set up an external forum for RFB. Anyone can drop in at anytime and read what's going on. Anyone can join and contribute. GWX's appraoch locks out those that are interested in following what's going on.

Link to forum:
http://forum.kickinbak.com

Ducimus breaks out small mods from TM that are fixes or enhancements for those not wanting a super mod for one fix and makes them available to everyone. So do we (RFB). If someone wants to take what we've developed and tweak it, they are more than welcome to. That's why you'll find a "Trigger Maru with training wheels" on the ubisoft forum. Dgrayson took TM and made it more playable for his grandson and posted the altered mod. I doubt very much GWX would be so open to such fiddling with their super mod. Tater has pieces or entire rollins of his mods in almost every big mod for SH4 and has been nothing but helpful in those efforts. Anyone willing can combine the big mods into a super mod and post one with a "flavor" that matches their likes and dislikes.

The SH4 modding community works on compatibility between mods, and will often release 3 or 4 versions of the same big mod allowing users to create their own super mod

Being one of the modders in SH4, and having spent a few months, I definitely see a difference. Heck Ducimus has what some people might call a "competing" mod to RFB and we've both used pieces of each other's mods with not only the other persons permission, but even with their help. Not only that, he's encouraged me, and I keep pestering him to continue with TM. Some of the most experienced modders here have been nothing but encouraging when I picked up RFB. They let me use their mini-mods with their blessing and would explain things patiently when I asked about the "why" behind some of their changes.

A couple of very experienced modders joined to help with RFB because I'm still WAY behind them in my knowledge of the game structure and modding. Yet they are patient , helpful, and I could not have created the changes they have implemented for RFB (LukeFF is the prime example in this for RFB).

You say its the same? Then have GWX make their tools available to the community like skwasjer did. have them take new modders under their wings who are trying to make changes to some of the stuff in GWX with encouragement from the GWX team, and then you'll start to come close to the open approach the SH4 modders take.

Modding is about lateral thinking in many cases since we only have limited access to the code. As a result, we have to think outside the box oftentimes to get a desired effect.

Sometimes innovative ideas come from folks who DON'T understand what's been done, and what is possible/impossible. Having the tools out there is only a good thing, nothing bad can possibly come from it, IMO.

Some modding is driven just by personal interest. A certain part of the sim might be seen as "good enough" and remain untouched by the modding "establishment" on the boards (doesn't get talked about in the forums, more important fish to fry, whatever). A noob might have that little part of the sim as his pet peeve. If he had the tools, he'd just dive in and mess around. In doing so, he might discover something unknown to even the old salts.

When S3D becomes even more capable, it will be a golden age of SH4 modding I think. It's already massively democratized modding, IMO. There are many things I'd not have done without S3D. There are things I want to do that it doesn't do yet. Sure, I could start messing with hex, but you know what, I have a life. If it takes XXX hours of learning curve for me to be skilled with hex, then another YY hours to do what I want, I'll just work on something else (like new maps for Il-2 ;) ), and when S3D does it I can concentrate on making new content, not learning hex editing.

Also, for the sake of the noobs, seeing the process really helps. When I started I found threads talking about mods, but the ones that really helped had the details. Not just what files, but WHY that particular value mattered, how the sim dealt with it. [TEC] threads are a good thing. My campaign mod was done for myself as a learning experience. Lurker went to the next level. Our campaigns are "in competition" I guess. Meh, who cares, we've talked a lot, I have stuff from him, he has stuff from me. If everyone prefers his campaign, so what? We all win by having a better campaign to play with (the fact that I am no longer inundated with questions is not lost on me, either, that's the downside of having a popular mod. I like the quiet. ;) )


<S>

tater

While i agree user support is a PITA, there is such a thing as an FAQ (not that it helps much, but hey, it gives you an excuse to simply ignore various questions) . So, I'm sorry, but i just do not believe the part ive but in italics. What your neglecting to say is how the mod forum there developed into two poltical camps based on personality and end goals.

Information was kept closely guarded because of the desire to out do the other. It was all one big game of "oneupsmanship" and petty rivalry. I was there, i know, i participated, and not a day goes by where i dont feel ashamed, and is the biggest reason why im free with mod and tec info today. I remember well when DTB was in the hidden GW forums here and the stink the arose after. The worry? "Oh my god he got some of our mod ideas!". Can't exactly blow the rival out of the water when they see what your up to. "Intelliectual rights" and "ethics" became (and still are) big issues there, and everything was (and still is) a closely guarded secret and proprietary.

This, i bleieve, is how the social climate there became what it is today. Its just how it is, i accept that. However,the SH4 modding community for me, was an opportunity for a fresh start, and take lessons learned from the past and try and forge a better mod community for tommrow - i hope others can take a similar view. I dont think anyone wants to see "mod warish" behavior here. It only stiffens creativity, and drives creative minds away.

I understand, and as said, this is perfectly fine with me. I may not have phrased it correctly, nor was I really pointing to GWX. While I quoted you both in my last as well as this post, it's really just a general observation and not aimed at you or anyone in particular. I'm also not talking about protecting the regular users from technical blabla. The blacker the box for them, the better. ;) I'm really referring to the people that are less advanced or new into modding, however keen to learn.

As far as S3D, it surely makes modding more accessible, but without knowledge of the game mechanics, you still have a steep curve to walk and one can potentially screw up the game files easier than before (where people would need to get a hex editor first, they'd simply give up here). But at least people now can try.

Imo, those that know ALOT sortof have the obligation to tutor those that don't, and use some of their (precious) time to write up what they know. I personally feel we don't see enough of this. My attempt to tutor is to make a user friendly tool. In fact, more work has gone into the UI than into the actual core engine that reads/writes the game files. I want to take new modders by the hand with S3D and make it as easy as possible so they can start modding in weeks instead of months/years, and take average/experienced modders also by the hand so they can focus on making new game content instead of learning every byte in a binary file, need to rewrite tweakfiles, hexscan a file for its contents (which could litteraly take hours per file) etc... This age of modding is behind us (well, almost anyway ^^).

Experienced modders (not mod teams) need to step up and help others out by putting more effort into sharing what they know, instead of keeping a lid on it or help someone out in private. It's what the mod forums are for!

I've been member of other (game) mod communities before (and did similar things as I do for SH), and subsim modding in comparison is near the top of my list of succesful communities as far as released mods (which says alot about the flexibility of the game engine), but as far as the number of technical discussions and available tutorials that breaks down game essentials/mechanics it is really all the way down at the bottom.

bleh, another long post :rotfl:

I admit, i am lazy. It's easier when people ask specific questions. I always try to help when asked something specific, but i admit, writing up [tec] posts is something im usually too lazy to do. (its more like, "Good god, where do i start in writing this?")


As an aside, its not my desire to pick a fight or be at odds with ANYONE. Frankly im amazed i can still post on this forum at all.

Lets stop this at this point, shall we?

My intention was to let people (not specifically one side or the other, since their guilty parties everywhere so to speak) reflect a little bit at their attitude and think if there's something that needs changing/adjusting.

Ok then.:up:

However, I would like the opportunity (having missed the chance to reply due to time zones) to say, this was never an attempt to say one team does it right and another does not. Far from it. I needed to pick examples and I used what I knew most about, in no way am I single minded in that vain. Each to their own and at the end of the day, the community benefits.

It's a shame that this should end because, in this instance, the discussion was mature and well presented.:up:

I just read the whole thread!! Enjoyed it immensely from a humanistic viewpoint! Maybe there's hope for the world yet!

From a technical viewpoint, I don't know what the hell they were talking about!! :o
:rotfl:

But I will say this, I peruse a number of forums, and this one has the most intelligent content by far!! :know: