Food goes in one end and out the other makes us equal with everyone on the planet earth ...

It's our faith that separates us from each other ... :yep:

And I have to say ennobling what is to be ridiculed, by taking it as something substantial, treating it as an equal, while it claims a status in public and demands rights that it does not deserve and wants to have a seat beside science in public education - doesn'T make it any better. Mockery where mockery is fit. I see no reason in teraching the earth is a globe and the earth is a disc - and letting the kids chose which they like better (under influence of their parents and grandparents anyway.) chemistry and alchemy at school? Physics and astrology? Hahaha, save me, please. too much already got lost by taking this nonsens more serious and dealing with it reasonably and polite. TV and gaming already turns people into zombies - do we really need creationism at schools and universities and relgion playing that kind of role in public life again that in europe since centuries led to bloodshed to bloodshed - in the name of saving souls and in the name of a god allegedly loving man?

I can't criticise Islam - and at the same time remain silent about christian fundamentalism. If doing so, I would contradict myself. Both are offsprings of the same kind of blind and evil mind. Or of the same satan, if you like that better.

And for all others: I never, nowhere have told anybody what they should believe in, or that they should believe at all. at best I described my own position, and attack that of others whose position I see as extremely questionable, that is nature of discussion/debate, you have to live with it. I don't care for the colour of the walls in your kichen - believe what you want - as long as you keep it private and do not try to make your religion a public dogma that violates the separation of state and church or forces those not agreeing nevertheless to adapt in their social manners, behaviors and possibilities to act - then you are demanding more than is yours, and you step over a line. KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELVE. When I hear creationism being recommended to be tought side by side with sciences at school, when I hear creationists saying their pseudo-science is as substantial and logical and reasonable and commited to the scientific method than "standard" science", and when I read and being told about people in fundamentlist cities and towns fearing for their future chances and for their kids if they would let their oh so wonderfully religious environment known that they do not share their beliefs, and when I see how "atheism" in the US has become another name for Satan, communism, and all of what is evil, sick and mentally derranged in the world - then these accusations of me (or atheists) being arrogant, hatefilled, immoral morons who nevertheless should consider themsleves lucky to benefit from God'S mercy on judgement day in reality mean that YOU are the offensive and arrogant ones, not me (or us), and that you are intolerantly striking against everybody not sharing your views (but complaining if the ones you taregt defend themselves against your attempt to creep to power and silently subjugate society), and you are the source of evil things to come, not me (us). Atheists these days serve as a spitting-pot where relgious hardliners see all the evil and stupidity that they cause with enthusiasm themselves.

the way you interpret the role of religion, and the content of Christ's message, led to bloodshed and bloodshed and bloodshed. It mad elife in europe miserable for centuries and centuries. It caused intolerance and hate and the inquisition. What is in the bible before christ, is bloodshed and crime and conqeust, and inhumanity and brutality - ordered by God. Judaism and Islam are not any better. - And that tells everything important one needs to know about these relgions. If any god authorized this outcome, it shows his sick, psychopathic mindset and he then does not deserve the smallest quantum of loyalty. and if he meant something different but his letter caused all this evil to happen, then I am not impressed with his abilities to deliver his message correctly. And if it all should be just our own fault - I would like to ask him what this tells us about him, if we were made accroding to His own image and picture, and why the hell he did not try harder to make us any better than just himself.

And finally, for all those exemplaric religious people thinking that religion is theism, and theism is religion, and if there is no theism and deities involved, there is no religion, b that claiming that all true relgion can only be THEIR religion (that'S what it really is about: YOUR religion above all and everything else):

So: every theism qualifies to be a cult or religion. But not every religion necessarily must be theism.

I have no contempt for you, or anyone else. And I have no problem with the concept of an all-powerful God creating the universe in an instant - or in seven days. I just don't see any evidence outside of the Bible itself that would indicate that that's how it happened.

I love a good discussion, including disagreements, but one of the problems I continually have is that I'm a true doubter, meaning I doubt myself as well. This causes trouble with true believers of any type, because they almost always take the attitude that since I admit I don't know I'm right then I have to admit that they may be. And it's true; but true believers are usually just that, and since they already know that they're right, there isn't any room left for discussion. This goes for the devout atheist as well as the religious person. You seem to be different, and at least you have a sense of humor about yourself.

I'm with Karl Popper on this one. If it can't be refuted by a new discovery, then it isn't reliable knowledge.

To a lesser extent I am with Occam.
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

No, I disagree with you while yet on many occassions being the 'target of his rants' as you put it. There seems to be a touch of a double standard here. :hmm:

Most people find it all well and dandy when Skybird posts on Islam and Muslims yet when he talks about other religions or other peoples faiths such as Christianity there are these direct accusations or attacks at Skybird himself. While I can sympathize to a degree, there is no need to make digs at Skybird.

Skybird can have his say. Others have the choice to either counter his arguments while remaining civil or just simply ignore/don't read them as I tend to do at times if life is getting me down or I'm not in the right frame of mind. As I said earlier, I can sympathize because matters of faith and religion are deeply personal and when someone constantly writes every week on this forum about my religion, faith, and Muslims it gets tiresome, frustrating, and just a tad depressing. So I understand the frustration of some here. But hey look on the bright side it could be worse. Try being a Muslim like me. Now I really have got it bad. :lol:

It would also probably help if those wanting to discuss such topics excercise a litte self restraint. By this I mean not talking the subject to death day after day. Just a little balance would be nice along with variety. :up:

Anyway that is my 2 cents as I must plan my next convoy attack off the west coast of Ireland for tonight. I'm trying to break the 100,000k tonnage mark in this, my 7th patrol mid 1940. :arrgh!:

Well... in your previous post you said you had bad words to throw at people just like me. I interpretted that as contempt, I'm glad you've clarified.

The doubts can only be overcome with time and study... which I would encourage all to do. There are logical explanations for all those nagging questions and doubts, you just have to go find them for yourself.

Sounds to me like Neal is spot on in his assessment...

You have made a good point sir. I guess I have been offended too much by Skybird's comments. I sometimes act as if my religion is the most hated thing in the world, but I close my eyes to the fact that I have hardley ever been the target of prejudice. It must be terible to be in your shoes when so many people make your religion out to be the greatest evil in the world. I have no idea what it is like to walk around the streets and be shuned for your beliefs. I deeply apologize for not being able to accept other people's criticism.

Regards
Silentrunner

What I said was, I thought it was clear I was referring to ardent fundamentalist creationists who call anyone who says that Genesis might not be literally true things like "Liberal Christians", or even "False Christians".

As I said, I've been wrong enough times in my life to make me constantly doubt my own sanity, let alone correctness. And while I love to discuss all manner of things, I have little time nor respect for people who go into a discussion already holding the attitude that they are right and need to convince me. It's too much like talking to a salesman.

As I also said, from what I've read of your writings, I don't consider you to be one of them.

Disagree, I voted Other but then I thought of "Creation" as the very narrow fundamentalist "Young Earth" sort that you do not represent. In that sense I believe in a sort of creation process.

Herein lies a big problem with believers...

True Christianity teaches one must realize that there is no way to reach a non-believer...period. It is not something that is within the power of a child of God to do.

The two are opposites and enimity with each other. The fleshly mind cannot grasp the the things of the spirit until God so chooses to show them the door.

So all a Christian can do is try to keep the porch light on showing there is a door...a way , a path. And so it will be as in the time of Naoh....Read the parable of the bridesmaids.

He that is unholy let him be unholy still. Only once God has revealed the Son to a person and that person "accepts and surrenders to God" can salvation and new life come....

until then they have ears but do not hear,eyes but don't see, they are dead...so do not become disheartened when they reject you...so did they to your master.

and what an honor to suffer some of the same as Christ.

Peace and do not cast your pearls before swine lest they trample them under foot.

OK, that's exactly what I said... You voted "Other" but you ascribe to the belief that there was a creation process involved. You fall under the category creationist deist. I suspect most who are voting "Other" have similar leanings toward some sort of intelligent design theory.

I defined the difference between creationism and evolution. I mentioned that Christians (by true definition) fall under the "theist" category. The difference between evolution and creation is black and white... there is not a third gray-area category.

Evolution theory specifically argues the non-existance of any God-like or otherwise intelligent being anywhere in the process of creation. Creation evolved from nothingness without the help of any sentient being.

Creation or intelligent design theory suggests there is an intelligence working behind the scenes at some level.

Atheists fear the "Intelligent Design" concept is merely a front for pushing Christianity. By definition (and the acknowledgement of folks on this very thread) I've shown that creationist theory is a belief that can be held independently of religious affiliation. To simply exclude it from school curriculum is to specifically argue or present only the "there is no God of any type, period..." argument.

On a side note, I also previously mentioned, I do like to believe the Bible is literal when it speaks of creation occuring in 7 days. ...I'll repeat again, I have no problem believing almighty God could wink the universe into existance in a mere millisecond (much less 7 days) in mid or late life cycle with all it's wonders and interesting time-carbon-based, space-time-lightyear, nuances there for us to explore, ponder, and learn from. A scientist digs up a bone and reports it being a b'zillion years old... or points to the Earth's layers and crust... and just says, "An all-powerful God could not possibly have made it this way." and I say, "Why not?"

Not sure why I see these Christian scientific movements so bent on proving that dirt and rock is literally only 7000 years old. I have to ask, "Why do they feel so compelled to prove anything?" "Is the God of the Bible, that you believe in, not perfectly capable of creating it that way?" Perhaps the intent was to test YOUR faith Christian! ...again, does the Bible teach that God was somehow limited in power and needed to form Adam as a seed that needed to grow?

The arguments for/against evolution/creation should really have very limited focus on something as small and limited as time... Time is not the pivotal issue.. It's more fundamental... God or no God

What?

Evolution describes how lifeforms change and adapt, the process of dominance and survival.
It is not a theory on the origins of life.
It says nothing about gods.

A lot of things would be much easier if theists would not be so obsessed with the idea of giving the assumed factor of non-randomness in the developement of the universe, matter and life a personlaised image, turning it into a divine personality, a character, a supernatural divine individual - on which than all man's weaknesses and flaws got projected - the God in the old testament is not described as a god, but an immoral, powerhungry, brutal, tyrannic egoist like so many other rulers have been in human history.

It also would be easier if people could just admit that some things there are of which we must conclude that - we simply do not know. making assumption, describing fantasies, forming images, and build - like tolkien did - mythologies and systems of rites and habits around this lack of knowledge - does not turn it suddenly into knowledge, or experience. It remains to be lacking knowledge. people just have started to deceive themselves about this fact, becasue for man it is a tough psychological burden to imagine himself being surrounded by a universe which is not really interested in his personal individual wellbeing, and which is so much beyond his control that he cannot make safe assumptions about his future life and his role in it all. Unsecurity is one thing that is very difficult to bear for most people. But I compare it to a swimmer in the pool who is too afraid to let go the hand-contact to the edge of the pool. But only if you let it go, you are able to dive in the open ocean and see the beauty hidden below the surface, or you can surf on the waves, and feel being carried by the ocean. Ironically, you are the more unsafe the more you cling to the egde of your little pool. freedom does not come before you do not let it go.

Christians mystics like Meister Eckehardt etc. represented such a thinking that loosened itself from the classical understanding of God demanding you to paddle inside your pool and never stop grabbing the edge of it, or the end of the stick that he holds to you, and that he beats you with if you do not obey. They realised that freedom of mind cannot be gained if sticking to the old concpetions and rules and dogmas. Not before you transcend your conception of God, and letting go the personalised image you made of him, you can see that this quality you maybe would to describe as being "divine" (means: going beyond the cause of just mechanically interacting matter; means also: self-awareness, consciousness), you become free to see that indeed everything that exists is of one essence, is one thing in that every aspect of it "has Buddha nature", if you forgive that foreign cultural terminus.

But as long as you separate the world into sacral and profance, you are caught in dualistic polarisation that will not stop to feed and blow up your ego by making you imagine that what you do is right, and what the others do is evil if they do not do like yourself. All that is man-made complication, and it is not needed. There is no Mr God. that does not mean that everything that exists is by random chance only. It is not. but the basis of this purpose behind it is the simple fact that matter itself has the ability of self-awareness, and the higher the structures it forms, the more it becomes aware of itself. Self-understanding is the motor behind the process of constant changing, transforming and developing that we call evolution. So much for survival of the fittest and me being representative for Darwin'S thinking - there are parallells between him and me, obviously - but I go beyond him while at the same time including him. As I see it and experienced it in meditation, there is no time, and there is no space that would be without my mind creating and forming them. they both are a function of my brain being active as an expression of the one quality of mind that in the end all universe and cosmos are made of, and caused by. and that is why I am not hesitant to say - and hopefully will drive all fundamentalists crazy and blowing up their heads over my heresy and arrogance ;) - that I am not more and not less God than you are, and my table is, and Jesus has been, and God himself should be. and that is the reason why Jesus said nobody reaches the father than through him, and other according quotes I do not take the time to write down again now. Only when seeing him in the light of this meaning, what Jesus said actually makes any sense that is beyond pure mysticism and miracle-believing. If you take him literally, you drown in confusion.

the problem is not me being a heretic and blowing my own existence up in importance - the problem is that some of you are so very happy to minimise themselves as much as possible. You want to be small and weak, and that's why you are small and weak in your superstitious beliefs. but nobody hinders you but your own traditions and religious institutions. The right to claim all freedom - is yours, since your birth. You are meant to grab it, and act responsibly on it. That is why you are what you are, and are not any different than that.

The key to many problems we have lies on a higher level of evolutional developement (=self-realisation of mind). That'S why there is no going back to the old good times - they only offer solutions that helped with probelms from mankind'S past. But any higher level we reach may bring the cure for problems of the present - but at the same time introduce new challenges and problems that do not beging to exist before reaching that new level. To heal this self-deception that there is a loving god caring for you - you need to gain more self-awareness - and that is much more than just sitting in silence and closing your eyes. It means mental developement, and leave your mental childhood behind when you believed in fairy tales and good fairies and shining knoights fighting the dragon to save you. that works nice for kids - from adults, we demand taking responsibility, and accepting the consequences from our acting or non-acting, and not worshipping the brothers Grimm. This is what Buddha said. This is what Jesus said, in different words. This is how the gospels make any sense - and then reveal a lot of reason and insight - they are no superficial fairytale to be taken literally. This is how the Christian mystics understood it, and lived it. and it also is the true and necessary basis for true love and understanding. and that is what it all is about: love. Believing in deities prevents you from really understanding that, forever, becasue you make it a deal of obeying and demanding in return. It makes you willing to limit yourself playing with puppets only that your forefathers have created. It makes you attaching strings to yourself and allow others to make you dance to their scriptures' jusic - or their interests. Of course you can do that, and find it enjoyable. but you waste this precious opportunity that your life is, and life a puppet's life only, controlled by ghosts of the far away past. Maybe that is good enough for some. But it is not good enough for me, and since I am already beyond that state of infantility and wishing to be save in the fairy tale garden, there is no way back for me - thank God! :lol:I do not tell anybody what to believe, and to believe like I do. I only give you this culture-free advise that I have quoted often before in this forum, and try to argue with it or see it as evil, if you can - it's your loss only, not mine. that is the most reasonable spiritual advise you could ever need:

Do not put faith in traditions, even though they have been accepted for long generations and in many countries. Do not believe a thing because many repeat it. Do not accept a thing on the authority of one or another of the sages of old, nor on the ground of statements as found in the books. Never believe anything because probability is in its favour. Do not believe in that which you yourselves have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired it. Believe nothing merely on the authority of the teachers or the priests. After examination, believe that which you have tested for yourself and found reasonable, which is in conformity with your well being and that of others